Feigenbaum's constant is an eternal object

Are you saying that it is an issue because it can be explained in complicated ways?

“Actual” = “physical”
“conceptual” = “mental”
“souls” = “conceptual”…

The physical universe IS the changing of potential to change; changing of the situation that is causing change.
That is an eternal reality merely because it is defined as that; a conceptual construct (an eternal conceptual entity involving the cause of the physical).

What I am asking is “why are people arguing over it?” Why are anyone but metaphysicists caring one way or another?

It seems like a bunch of farmers arguing that a proton isn’t REALLY positive because “positive and negative don’t REALLY exist”.
Why do you farmers care? It is just concepts being defined so that physicists can think.

It’s an issue because the explanation is speculative. We don’t “know” i.e. have direct empirical evidence. [Incidentally I removed the reference to souls above because I don’t want to get off on that tangent on this thread. ]

Right except the way i’m looking at it actual goes deeper than physical in so far as it includes the conceptual in process.

I think so except, that “merely” raises the question "Who is doing the defining? We are for sure. But, I’m saying it’s a real process not just a human arbitrary one.

Metaphysics fell seriously out of style. Of the 2 writers of Principia Mathematica, Russell’s way of thinking was ascendant in the 20th century. Whitehead was relegated to the back of the bus. Only the persistence of problems like consciousness keep metaphysics on the map by a toe hold. Guys like Daniel Dennent want to end that as well. On the other hand, metaphysicians were produced massive bullshit in their day so the skeptics do an indispensable service. All I ask is that they produce reasonable arguments instead of emotional reactions or naked disbelief.

And then secondly, “who are the ‘they’ in that request?”

I was referring to metaphysical skeptics but it includes everybody.

I still suspect that you didn’t quite get the drift of my first question.
Perhaps by example;
“Why does Mutcer care if there was a Christian God?”
…or any of the other “farmers”?

…and btw, it doesn’t matter who is defining what as long as everyone knows the definitions when they hear or think the words. It is only when the definitions get confused that the mind goes out the window (which accounts for the past 10,000 years of homosapian behavior).

Oh, right. Because it’s still a live issue for them. They need God if only to react against. On the afterlife thread yesterday I posted a quotation from Plato’s Republic in which Cephalus describes how questions of transcendence bubble up in people. For a third party observer, there is as much evidence that atheists reacting existentially against the truth of God as that there is that theists are reacting against the falsity of God.

By the way, I am not on board with calling persons I disagree with farmers. I’m trying to tamp down the name calling here. We can do without it.

Morning Felix,

— Thanks for weighing in. I read it but I don’t see the problem. I am reminded of Refugee by Tom Petty. “Somewhere, somehow,
some metaphysician must have kicked you around some.” I’ll keep your objections in mind as I try to go forward.
O- Cool.

— Of course, “I think”. I have admitted that I am speculating. Thought can vanish like dew in the morning sun. The avowed reductionists tear their hair. Whitehead said “Rationalism never shakes off its status of an experimental adventure.…Rationalism is an adventure in the clarification of thought, progressive and never final. But it is an adventure in which even partial success has importance.”
O- I agree with him on this.

— Unfortunately, Whitehead was developing his profoundly new vision of the world just as analytic philosophy was rejecting metaphysics carte blanche.
O- This is regrettable. But it would be as regrettable to ignore, for example, the objections of analytical philosophy, as you say “carte blanche”.

— Consequently, they found metaphysical questions and answers to be literally meaningless.
O- There is more value in what the later Wittgenstein had to said as opposed to the early Wittgenstein. Not that they are meaningless, but that it is a social process.

— The need for a comprehensive vision of reality hasn’t decreased since Whitehead. A unifying vision of reality is needed more than ever. The discovery of new theoretical constants in the sciences extends the unifying vision supplied by process-relational thought. I think people need to see the interwoven, relational character of our world and our lives. Vision will enrich lives in a world where thought is too often fragmented and self-referential.
O- Like I said, the enhancements gained do not demonstrate the rationality of the idea. It could be another noble lie.
I agree with you about the dreadful state of western society, however I disagree with the diagnosis and treatment proposal, because to me the beginning of disintegration is rotted elsewhere. It was not analytical philosophy that did us in. We never abandoned rational thought because it is the default mode of our species. None is an absolute sceptic. Establishing universals, as Plato did, also, will not serve as a social bandage. You cannot learn to be a better neighbor, you cannot demonstrate the need for community. All the books that could be filled with such “visions” would not be worth a cup of coffe with another human being.
I believe that the apathy you see is not universal, and certainly other cultures exist today, like the mediterrean culture, that do not match your description of effects. Be careful not to create an ogre so that you have a definite target instead of a difused process whose cure is intractable.
I do believe though that only a theological vision might be effective. However there is a human coil that always obscures the vision. The vision (worldview) of the real is not divided between the physical and the conceptual but between the rational and the irrational. Thus, even in the best of worlds, “you will always have the poor…” Rationalism is not the solution in absolute, in fact it can be argued to be part of the problem, for what is it that you see in the universal? It might be a vision of a chosen people, a vision of purity. And if you have a clear vision of this, you might visit the world incredible cruelty in accordance with the IDEA. The vision might unite you but not to the present, to the living, but to the dead and those not yet born.
It would be nice to demonstrate our connectedness in a mathematical ratio, to render the voice of God as universal as math rather than as diverse as revelations go, but this lack is not the only cause for war and massacress because we are rational up to a point and our needs go beyond a loving community. As Nietzsche would say all is WTP. The vision is WTP, the lack of a vision is WTP. Some need is being met.
What I think will bring people to accept one another, to see the self in another, is exposure to others, to the stranger and recognizing not how we are interconnected but how we are the same, with the same dreams, the same fears (this is the IDEA) under the different languages and dresses.

I respect and admire farmers. If you noticed in my analogy the only issue is that they are physicists, thus why are they complaining about how physicists have defined their words. People here are NOT metaphysicists and I can’t see any rational reasoning for them to be arguing over how something (such as a soul, existence, or a constant) has been defined concerning “existence”.

No I don’t understand your OP it makes no sense to use maths on a speculative area. It makes no sense at all. Maths is sciences and sometimes philosophies bitch, at no point does it claim to be real though because anything anyone says or opines makes it so.

I don’t like people who use inapt maths in a way that denotes anything about religion. I don’t dislike you or your religion, but stop using abstraction as a means of proof, it’s wrong.

It’s a pattern that is fairly common in philosophy. What is the nature of a law, expressed mathematically, that can be empirically ‘found’ or is it simply found - without citation marks - in nature.

Is it a thing? Waht kind of thing? Does it exist? What is it? It’s a perfectly acceptable exploration.

I am not quite sure what you are saying here, but math isn’t science. It is not empirical or, at the very least, need not be. Non-euclidian geometries were thought to have nothing to do with reality until suddenly they did.

Your likes and dislikes are beside the point. If his use of or understanding of the math is incorrect, then he can be instructed on this. If you think that the application is incorrect then you can argue against that application.

At any point have ethics or it’s practical cousin law ever been written down as mathematical argument that made any sense?

Is ontology reducible to a mathematical argument in all or even most cases. Is epistemology something that reduces easily to an arbitrary maths construct? has teleology or etiology recently become an exact science?

No, I rest my case. :wink:

Yeah that’s the point why did they suddenly have anything to do with reality, was it because of religion?

I’ve no doubt that some philosophical arguments such as what is a chair can be reduced to maths but the eternal is related to a maths function, no I disagree with that unless and I make this in the hope you know maths, it is an integral with positive and minus infinity as its bound.

A limit of n approaching infinity does not count.

Math isn’t an actual thing, but as a perceptual-reality-overlay, it can add to our understanding of reality.
Math can at times be proof. There is allot more to the universe than what appears.
There is more meaning than we assume, not less.

That just sounds like magical thinking tbh.

Pythagoras, Plato, Descartes and Spinoza and other important philosophers used math to support their philosophy. I could make an argument for eternal objects without math. But, I no reason to exclude math since it exemplifies non-temporal conceptual form which would be the essence of an eternal object as I defined the term above.

Mathematics is merely logic applied to quantities or measurements. It doesn’t belong to any particular field of application. Logic is logic.

Absolutely.

No you can use something that wasn’t meant to be used that way that way, it’s still word salad though.

An appropriate use of eternal in maths would be something like a summation to infinity + or -.

There’s also the issue of convergence anything that is eternal does not converge to a finite value ie if we take a 0 point as the present in an eternal universe the age of the universe has little or no practical implication.

Integrals that have no solution can use transcendentals, such as the exact value of pi in a spherical universe if t = infinity.

Assuming that you are correct what is the relationship of the Feigenbaum’s Constant to Infinity? If you apply the constant to an infinite sequence, doesn’t periodic doubling occur infinitely as well?