Females, post.

Tentative, I suppose I could have phrased the question as: “What appears on your Driver’s License after sex: F or M?”

How is it relevant? I don’t really know. But I do believe these forums are a sausage-fest.

xzc- asl Really? Wanna get together some time? Maybe have a three-way? Wink wink nudge nudge, do you wanna chat in “private”? webcam? champagne? internet predator lawsuits?

There’s at least a dozen females who post regularly here…

no, it doesn’t haha, it depends on ur genitals. lol.

Yeah, right. And there is no such thing as a sex change operation. People will go to whatever extreme necessary to try to make reality match up with their orientation.

This is all beside the point. Gaia was looking for simple f/m responses. I just tried to open the potential discussion a bit.

This doesn’t add up to me.
If physiology has nothing to do with orientation, then how could people possibly make their physiology match with their orientation?

Like if I were to tell you shoe size has nothing to do with what music you like, and then I said people try to make their shoe size match what music they like…you’d think something’s off, right?

It’s an interesting question, Tentative. Is gender better subjective or objective? And I have asked this question- is it a violation of human rights to require the identity of male or female on a driver’s license? I in fact did a test on this theory. I burned out the “M” on my driver’s license. I wanted to see how police would react. Sure enough one day I was pulled over and he asked why I did that. He didn’t charge me but he looked very annoyed that I did so. When he asked why I did it, I said exactly the truth. I didn’t believe it should be necessary information. I’m not sure I still believe that.

75 years ago, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Joe Sixpack only understood male/female. Oh sure, he knew about “fags”, but it wasn’t dinner table conversation. There was no such thing as sex change operations, no silicone, no need to consider his vote on same-sex marraige, he was a by-god man and his girlfriend/wife was a man-loving woman. Homophobia was in full bloom and sanctioned by every red-blooded American. That there could be anything called a lesbian was beyond imagination. And transvestites? Sheer lunacy! It’s a little different today isn’t it? Pragmatically, the male/female question is innocent enough and serves a wide variety of information necessities, but the lines are blurry in today’s world. What was objectively cast in stone is now subjective in-your-face subject matter.

This has nothing to do with your original question and my intent wasn’t to hijack your thread. I just thought it might be important to pause and reflect on the notion that even something as simple and obvious as your question might not be as simple and obvious to a number of people - including some of our membership.

I’d contend that gender is biological. A sex change is not a total metamorphosis, it is a modification. A biological costume, so to speak. The rest is psychological. Social convention, like allowing someone who appears to be female enter a female bathroom, has more to do with aesthetics than biology. In other words, a woman who undergoes a sex change, for instance, is not a man. She is a woman trying her best to appear as a man.

We don’t determine gender, but we sure do confuse it.

The question is: Were you born with a penis?

Athletic event committees don’t use that as sole criteria of gender.

Well, I don’t think he is holding try-outs. Just asking.

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I’m equating the two - biological sex and “gender”. Gender as a social construct seems all but meaningless to me.

I’ll put it this way: If I find some apples and smash them up to make an apple pie, I don’t technically have “apples” anymore. I have a pie. What kind of pie? Apple.

In the same sense, we have females composed of males and vice-versa. However, I will say that gender classifications are only just that: classifications. We measure by characteristics, so aesthetics will suffice in many circumstances. I just don’t see any practical reason to force a distinction between “sex” and “gender”.

I might be misunderstanding you, but if a person was labeled “female” at birth, for lack of a penis, but this person feels like a man and identifies as a man and greatly desires to have a sex change operation in order to feel fulfilled… doesn’t that speak to a practical distinction between sex and gender?

God that’s a dumb thing to do. You never know if a little thing like that could be illegal. I know it seems innocuous to you and all, but people have spent the night in jail or paid big fines for lesser, more arbitrary things. I mean it’s illegal to make marks on money, I’d bet that in some states it’s illegal to tamper with your ID as well. You got lucky. I wouldn’t take that risk.

In short, I’d have to ask what it is to “feel like a man”. That seems to speak only to a desire. A female, born “female”, feels like a man, yet she can’t possibly know what a man, born a “man”, feels like.

I don’t see a distinction, though. Why would someone identify any more or less with a penis? The change of “sex” doesn’t seem like the actual ideal to me – as if to simply say “I want to be a man” without reason. I think the ideal happens to be of a particular sex because those are classifications we easily identify with. So, the idea seems more along the lines of “I want what I believe is only attainable as a man”.

Take a kid who is terrible at sports, but dreams of being a star basketball player, for instance. He might fantasize about being black because of his own preconceptions. If he went and had some pigmentation procedure done, he might be “black” for all intents and purposes, but he is not technically of any African descent. He identifies only superficially.

The bits & pieces are synthetic anyway, so a sex change is really more akin to becoming genderless.

:laughing: :laughing-jumpingpurple: :laughing-lettersrofl: :laughing-rolling:

Sex does look funny.

Still though, the body is a spiritual canvas.

I remember reading about anorexia, I think in an article about Ramachandran. From what I understand, a person with anorexia actually sees themselves as fat. It has to do with some specific part of the brain that controls body image or something. So if you see yourself as a man, but don’t have a penis, testes, etc. it seems like there’s something real going on there, and it’s unfair to say “he identifies only superficially”. I think, anyway. Who knows.

No, you’re right. Perhaps that was an unfair statement. It was kind of a shitty example altogether, actually. At any rate, I can really only speculate on these matters, so I probably have no business speaking on them. I’m not looking to make any claims, aside from my initial contention that “sex/gender” is biological.

My only real point was that if someone can “feel” like a man without a penis, the addition of a synthetic penis is purely superficial. It seems as if such a person would be chasing an ideal that goes beyond merely “feeling” a particular way. They want others to presume how they feel.

That strikes me as true as well. But like you, I can only speculate. It’s got to be hard to deal with pyschologically, but on the other hand it seems to me like some people are amazingly unwilling to just accept the hand they’ve been dealt. Isn’t it actually harder to go to such lengths to pacify some problematic area of your experience, than to just deal with it? I suppose it’s like an itch that never goes away or something.

Yeah, and that’s what I was getting at toward the end of my previous reply. The desire is met with some manner of compulsion. A need not only to “feel” a certain way, but to also convince others that the feeling is justified.

I wasn’t trying to introduce the psychiatrist’s couch, the motives behind sexual orientation is a murky area of inquiry. Still, what used to be an either/or question isn’t as clear-cut as we habitually think about the subject. I’m afraid that the thread lost it’s way some time ago. I’m sorry I even brought up the notion that either/or doesn’t fit everyone. Soooo…

How many people in ILP were born as females? Will the distaff people please check in? Please?