Feminization of men, and masculine women: nonsense

men tend to go throughout time adapting new strats for getting the best looking females, as societies slowly change so do men’s strats for sleeping with women. It may seem like today men are more feminized (open rape of women is prohibited) but the idea that open rape of women is against the law because of women somehow manipulating men into a new society is fucked up, or men’s own ‘guilt’.

What happens is that as societies progress and become more economically successful and stable(Across the board in some ways i mean), as more and more men get economic successful, its easier for them to find females and females tend to stop *choosing to live in harem groups with rich men, and choose maybe a slightly less rich man, to have him all to herself.

As more and more people engage in “monogamy” violence rates plummet. Which probably allows for even more societal progress.

No, i’m not claiming that monogamy reduces violence because true monogamy doesn’t really exist what I mean is that fake monogamy over polygamy, reduced violence and probably helped lead to societies, where violence was rare enough that people started to crack down on it, to live more of the ‘good life’ not out of any nongreed mind you.

I don’t really know what I’m saying here other than: men slowly chose to effect societies in specific ways which eventually lead to different sexual strats and more economic success/less violence in societies. That it wasn’t a forced ‘feminization’ but a gradual, and male oriented shift.

Not a well thought out thread, but no one claiming the opposite has had a coherent one either, hopefully it turns into something coherent.

Cyrene-

I would just correlate this phenomenon to the average man’s body-size and mass compared to women. I should expect that today, men and women are getting closer and closer in body-sizes, whereas throughout history the differences in height were more dramatic all-around. I believe that men were much larger in women when hunter-gatherer societies needed the brute force of men much more than is needed today. When mammal species become similar in size between their males and females, then less physical competition ensues in mating. Sexuality trends toward monogamy and sizes average out even more. You can already see this in second-world countries around the world. In Mexico, many average men and women are practically the same size as each other.

Social organizations adapt to less competition by dispersing divisions of size between males and females. Since warfare has changed dramatically, there is no real utility to being very large and tall for a man. A single bullet or bomb will kill him just the same as a smaller man. Humanity is still evolving out of its old skin.

Now, when it comes to the feminization of man and the masculinization of women, then I think you are missing a crucial point. When males and females are nearly the same size in body, then different sexual tactics take place in order for men and women to be successful. Men appear as more feminine to increase their sexual success, whereas before this was highly contingent on class status, and before that, physical force. Women appear as more masculine for the same reason of the contrary, the body-size and masses are coming together. It gives us the appearance that males are becoming weaker and females are becoming stronger, which seems reasonable to assert to me. Men must then engage in more social tactics in order to mate. If a male is large, violent, and authoritative, then the system will overrule him by the force of law and numbers. Women will be naturally attracted to him, because of how sexual standards developed him to be attractive over time, but he is the, “bad boy.” In order for him to have children, he must pay in one way or another.

Nope, unfortunately you don’t understand evolution very well. We spent 99.9%+ of our time as a species in hunter-gatherer groups, we’re still completely adapted both mentally and physically to living that lifestyle. Sexual selection has also brought species to extinction allegedly. Theres no way that after women choosing larger than average men for 99.9% of human existence, that their just going to randomly stop, even if it becomes dis-advantageous.

Not to mention we have PLENTY OF HUMAN REMAINS FROM PREHISTORIC TIMES. their sizes were comparable to our own.

The critical point is that men aren’t getting smaller and that women aren’t getting bigger, look at remains, aren’t people supposedly getting taller? I know that prehistoric remains certainly aren’t *bigger.

Cyrene-

The point about that is what I already stated. In cultures around the world, right now, where no great economic or cultural developments occur, like many places in Mexico and South America, the people, men and women, often appear short and nearly the same height. Why does this occur?

It occurs, because there is a different kind of competition from males for females. In mammal populations, when the males are significantly larger than females, what happens? Why is it that human populations where they do not develop economically, that their males and females become the same size?

You are skipping over these blaring facts.

I’m not entirely sure this causal explanation of the phenomenon is good – at least it does not seem thorough enough to be reliable. One must consider the continued difference in testosterone and estrogen levels as the sources of personality traits such as aggression. It may be that less physical labor in industrialized societies contributes to less masculine behavior in men, from that one’s body does not need to produce as much testosterone, but I’d still hold that there’s a strong disparity between the ‘masculinity’ of men and that of women in general, from a persisting disparity in hormone levels.

For now I suspect that the shift in the Western dynamics of control between the sexes must be explained considering more factors than a study of levels of muscle mass during periods of human history. Also, my assertion about testosterone and aggression is unchecked, probably faulty psychology. It would need to be corrected or confirmed by someone who has studied the effects of hormones more closely, but I think I’m not too far off.

sonofspinoza1986-

You are correct to include testosterone levels into this discussion, but I do not believe it is the most prevalent cause for this phenomenon.

I believe that the body-size and mass ratio between males and females, and between males and their penis sizes, is what correlates an overwhelming degree of masculine versus feminine attitudes and socialization tactics in mammalian animals. There is a high degree of evidence that extremely large males with smaller penises (respectively) will be much more physically competitive with one another, inciting male violence, as opposed to a different specie with average sizes and larger penises, proportionally speaking. Taking the popular case of Bonobo apes for example, males must compete amongst each other using much more, “feminine,” tactics as opposed to violent ones. When males are smaller than females, like in insect species, then they reproduce and are consumed by the females, because they outlive their usefulness.

In our human specie, males range across a variety of sizes from culture-to-culture. My point is that in second-world countries, males and females are often close to the same size, which implies that these societies are likely not warring societies. The United States is a proper counterexample. Males in the U.S. have the widest range of male and female sizes, due to our cultural mix, and having the largest males precludes that male violence is going to be prevalent. This would explain a lot of misunderstandings between what foreigners see as, “crazy Americans,” compared to the U.S. perspective of egoism and narcissism. This also implies that the U.S. is going to have a large variety of sexual strategies, meaning that the most sexual success is going to occur in diversified environments. Regardless of this success, there is a, “feminizing,” effect that appears when that prior sexual success plays itself out. The less warlike America becomes will coincide with how the U.S. males’ masculine or dominant traits are dampened or lessened in effect based on stagnant sexual conditions.

The compensation for the extremities resulting in wide-spread sexual success is increasing socialization pressures of governments and institutions on its people. There shall be more policing for criminals and dissent as these sexual desires are repressed. When less and less males are deemed sexually attractive within a culture of extreme variety, then sexual evolutions occur at sped up rates. Violence also ensues when more and more males are kept out of the sexual process. When you combine all of this with cultural norms, abortion, pedophilia, porn, marriage, homosexuality, bisexuality, and feminist hedonism, then it becomes a very complex matter indeed.

And you are skipping over the blaring facts that different populations in prehistory had different sizes (some closer to others)as well and that its not happening more now because of your imagined evolutionary pressures.

I never said that size differences didn’t exist among human groups and that theres not adaptive reasons for it. I said that people aren’t getting smaller from prehistory till now.

Canada: 174 cm (5’ 8.5") 161.0 cm (5’ 3.4") (2005)
Mexico: 167 cm (5’ 5.7") 155 cm (5’ 1.1") (98)
US: 178.2 cm (5’ 10.2") 164.1 cm (5’ 4.6") (2002)

male/female heights, weight differences are likely comparable.

Cyrene-

Well, now that we see that these differences are apparent, then it make sense to say that populations can variate from large sizes to small sizes or otherwise. If a society or culture trends toward smaller or larger divergences between the sizes of their males and females, then it may be explained with trait principles. These phenomenons are seen socially, which is where the, “feminization and masculinization,” terms come from. If males are large and then grow proportionally smaller over time, then it should only make sense that the dominance of height is no longer dominating. The recessive traits are favored, lose their recessive status, and become dominant. This ties into human sexuality.

When it becomes no longer profitable for men to be large and tall in order to have several successful sex acts that produce children, then different tactics become favored. One of these tactics are for older men to have sex with younger women, even girls and teenagers, so that they become pregnant and cultural norms enforce anti-abortion measures. Another contrary tactic is for younger men to have sex with older women. Even outside of this, males who convince females to go off their birth control, or have sex with them outside of the women taking birth control, then these tactics will provide for more sexual success. In fact, this is happening. It is stupidity that is dominating sexuality, at least here in the U.S. Literally, stupid people are breeding, at very high rates, because this trait is dominating. The stupid genes get passed on and more and more people become easily controlled by institutional authorities. I believe that the contention of, “feminization,” is that this stupidity appears stupid, because of the feminine-tactics that males must utilize in order to have sex that produce children. Men must appear feminine and non-threatening, friendly and docile, otherwise they are removed from social circles one way or another.

the idea that population sizes vary according to competition among males is interesting and a great question to ask, it just doesn’t seem to be true, and that has to be in part, at least because of sexual selection.

yes different populations have different size comparisons between male/female; all across the globe, most of these are significant though they aren’t all the ‘same’. Males are usually a decent bit larger. the reason why human populations differ in average weight/height ratios is probably a combination of Natural Selection to a new environment (different types of food across regions, different amounts of activity, mountain or forests instead of plains)

These things effect how large human populations are probably going to be.

These population size differences existed in prehistory and we don’t see significant changes up till now (though, its not necessary that we should). And once more, we can make judgements about mate-choice that seem to hold true across all societies, because all humans share common mental architecture in a lot of ways.

As in, women with certain figures/facial asymmetry get picked by males across all societies more often than other females with different shapes. Women, cross-culturally seem to prefer certain male characteristics that would indicate high testosterone levels. (well, assuming they’re not blatantly abusive or bear some other personality trait that would make them screened out).

things like size matter, if you’re a good looking person whose 6’0/6’5 with broad shoulders and a deep voice with square-ish facial features, chances are a woman would select you over a 5’7 scrawny or mid-sized joe.

Unless that joe showed signs of this super intellect that might one day turn out to be status, unless that joe is already rich or somthing.

Don’t get me wrong, social status is probably more important to woman but to deny that they tend to seek out certain male characteristics in mates, is kinda like denying males do it. Statistically trends exist.

Sexual selection is a powerful force.

Yes; which is why I suspect that you’d have a few sexologist opponents if you gave your argument a fuller treatment with rigorous research and published it – or perhaps simply a broader study involving many more demonstrations of such phenomena. Complex topics like these involve complex (and well-documented) attempts to understand them.

Speaking of which: could you point me to where you’ve pulled this information? I’m not familiar with the common knowledge or consensus in sexology and so am unable to follow you well.

sonofspinoza1986-

Thank you for your suggestion. Though, I am currently researching other topics at the moment.

Most of my knowledge regarding mammalian sexual habits are pulled from my sexual anthropology class from my university. However, the evidence is relatively easy to find on the internet if you know where to look. Depending on the keywords you search for, you will find how male behaviors in mammals match up with their penis sizes, masses, body weights, and social contexts.

Random source #1 http://www.jstor.org/pss/2463063

Random source #2 http://books.google.com/books?id=5CQW4vPNH-EC&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=male+competition+and+violence+based+on+penis+size&source=web&ots=5_ebZQ1tqA&sig=LXl4e7RCZQnJNDwv7tY-TwaiPps&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA73,M1

Random source #3 http://psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=19941101-000022&page=3

This last one provided with a very interesting quote:

“Men with big penises are all too prone to think they’ve got all it takes, and therefore don’t show much variety/ingenuity/empathy.”

“Ordinary or even small-sized men have provided me with more orgasms.”

And another:

“When women say size doesn’t matter, they’re usually lying.”

I wish there were some way this forum would notify me of responses; sorry. Thanks for the links.

A lay article from the NY Times. I thought it was interesting, and pertinent.

Could Satyr be right after all? It’s truly a shame that more people wouldn’t have caught onto this “feminization” process already.

The track runners display that there is no equality of the sexes and there is no equality at all, really, because one man finishes the race every time.

When inequality is inherently acknowledged in our human specie, then things become much more clear. Men and women were created to fulfill very different natural roles. The Feminist movement was an ideological attempt to self-correct the progression of those natural-roles, an applied pressure to cope with what has happened in history. The black man doesn’t want to be a slave to the white man. The white woman doesn’t want to be a wife to the white man. That’s all fine. However, when it comes to societal problems and blames, then black men and white ex-wives should be careful to point the finger in blame. Who is to blame for all of history’s troubles? Is it the white man? Or, do the problems and blames go deeper than that? Where is society itself to blame? Where are people individually responsible for their own actions?

The more human nature forces people into living with one another, the more gender and racial characteristics diverge and emerge as changing concepts. Men begin to appear like women and women begin to appear like men. The feminization of man is complete. Egalitarian societies are the way of the future, because globalization is also complete. It’s the leveling of men…

uh, thats not true for most hunter-gatherer groups. the predisposed interests are.

its also true that the gap between sexes differs across cultures, but thats not a huge problem for evolutionary psychologists, it requires explanation, but thats not a ’
problem’ per se. just a gap in the explanation. (one provided is stress from things like starvation or etc)

for example, throughout all cultures certain ratios of hip/waist is preferred in females; its not the exact same from culture to culture, but its always in a very very specific range. So, pretty close.

theres also a few things that show that rate despite accounting for other factors, like the running example.

Depends what frame of reference you use too, suggesting that gender gaps get bigger in civilized society is certainly not true for plenty plenty of things like violence rates, aggression, or risk-taking ability.

thats simply not true, to suggest that in modern societies the gap is bigger than it was or/is in plenty of non-modern societies.

I’d check out the further reading suggested in the article. I was pretty skeptical too, but it seems pretty solid.