Fish Eating Darwinists

So, I was coming back from the School District offices today, and I stopped at a stop light. The car in front of me had that damn little anti-darwinist truth fish on their car. So I got to thinking in my genealogical way

  1. the First fish was the Christian Fish from the old symbol for Christ (A really awesome set of symbols actually, with The acrostic reference Jesus in the Greek, the allusions to dolphins [I know they aren’t fish!], and therefore the allusion to Dionysus and to the dying and rising rites - I doubt that most of the dumb meat and potatoes protestants really know all this though)

  2. Then the Darwin fish popped up with the little legs on the christian fish and the word “Darwin” in the middle. (I didn’t like this damn symbol as it forces Darwinism into a showdown with unfalsifiable religion and made things zero-sum)

  3. Then the Evangelicals came up with the Truth Fish that was bigger than the Darwin Fish and had it eat the Darwin Fish.

Now, this is an example of memetics and memetics is just the mechanism of evolution applied to the ecology of thought, right? So, by putting these Darwin Eating Truth fish on the backs of their cars, aren’t the evangelicals unwittingly admitting that in fact evolution is truth as their little fish have started to evolve in the face of competition?

I think the key word is ‘unwittingly’. I doubt very seriously that the trunk lid crowd would understand the question, since for them their symbols aren’t a question. It is a statement of the ‘truth’, and they’re proud of it.

They wear their religion on their sleeves, their lapel (sunday school pin), and their trunk lid. I’m never sure if they are talking to me or trying to remind themselves.

I suppose a few of these folks mean well and are sincere, but for the most part, it is the group who are merely capable of religion, not spirituality.

I’m going to burn in hell for this one.


What are you talking about? How is a current day Christian a democrat? How does that make them non-Christian?

What are you talking about? I mean, in general? Convert to Giant Turtle Worship and all will be well. We can heal your hurts

Amusing! I liked that Hermes the thrice great.

I remember reading in free inquiry that some philosophers won’t even publicly debate with Christians for that very reason. I’m not sure, but i think Dawkins may be one of them.

It has always seemed to me that faith has to strive harder to make it’s point than reason. As you say it is ‘unfalsifiable’ which also means that it is unprovable. Therefore the faithful must strive hard to convince, most of all themselves. But truth is a still, quiet voice.

It has always impressed me that Jesus rode into town on an ass but his so-called followers must loudly proclaim themselves with a plethora of bumper stickers (and fish).

The multitudes are still being fed with a few fish!

there’s always a bigger fish :sunglasses:

How can a European know anything about Christianity? Dude, have you ever been to America? The State School board of Kansas damned near outlawed the teaching of evolution. Our President says that Jesus is the best philosopher in history and the best selling novels in the country are about the fucking Rapture. Finally the only real word of God is the King James Version of the Bible and that, “all ye goode meane folke canst read”.

This is a day that will live in infamy!

I find myself in agreement with something WhiteLotus has to say, though I would contend that Science has a very important foundation, that being Human Observation.

Without it what we think of as Science would have to be something else entirely. (Faith perhaps?)

Something similar to this happened in ancient Greece, where the Gods of Olympus went from the purpose of strictly explaining certain phenomena (and directing certain behavior) to the Dionysians (sic) and Orphics who saw in the Gods (or one God in particular) a means of fulfilling their needs.

As this change occured, it was Philosophy that sought to explain the world. Wasn’t it the Ionians who were the first to propose that the Universe might be orderly? This assumption might also be considered another Foundation for modern Science… in that there is a pattern to the Universe that corresponds to observation.

That said, I have disagree on another point, as Hermes pointed out, there are Fundamentalists in America (I am sure there are a few in Europe as well) that believe the Bible to be literally true, word for word. Thus the Bible teaches one how to view the world (for them) as because it is the word of God there can be no other truth besides the biblical truth. Thus saying that there is absolutely no one who believes in the bible anymore is misleading, by at least several million folks here in the U.S. I advise you to try speaking about Evolution as being true at a Fundamentalist church… no doubt they will call you the Spawn of Satan and beat you with sticks.

Or drag you behind a truck

WhiteLotus said:

I frequently get that “How can you be ethical without God?” fallacy. I think it was Arthur C. Clarke who said, “The greatest hijacking in history is that of morality by religion.”

We do have religion on demand, particularly in the USA where you can pick from a variety of denominations, sects, etc. It’s a social club for a lot of people.

WhiteLotus eloquently continued:

I agree. Christianity is no longer the paradigm. For more and more people, religion is not even religion anymore. Religion is adopting the correctional methods of psychology, the mask of mythology, the tools of science. Religion is catching up with the rest of the World, but at it’s own slow pace. There are even pastors now who try to justify religion from the scientific paradigm! Which, to me, is another proof of it’s collapse.

hermes the thrice great ejaculated:

All true, even my wife reads that “Left Behind” series. And i believe that Tennessee is worst than Kansas when it comes to evolution. While America is one of the last bastions of Christianity, the percentage of Christians continues to decline.

GateControlTheory stated:

Alas, i must assume the ‘Lotus’ position myself. Good analogy. The Greeks used myth to explain their World and later on to service their needs, much like religion used to. Philosophy emerged then, much as science has now.

I would like to see statistics on the number of “Christian fundamentalists” (albeit hardly an objective category) over time. I am sure that number has declined dramatically. Maybe WhiteLotus is speaking metaphorically about there being no Christians left, after all Nietzsche said, “There was only one Christian and he died on the cross.”

Hi Marshall,

So how would you know whether you were counting ‘fundamentalists’ or merely bible reading facists?


holy hell is this confused

It’s hard to tell who’s a fundamentalist and who’s not. (Or Evangelical which is largely the same thing) I’d say there are probably in the neighborhood of fifteen to twenty million fundies in the States. about 20/280 or seven percent of the population +/-

like i said, hardly an objective category, but you could have a poll with questions like, “Do you believe that every word of the bible is literally true?” or something…

here’s a good article from Wikipedia - usually a good source of info about things

this Dispensationalism (I had forgotten this wonderful term, wonderful = goofy, not wonderful = full of wonder) covers most of the more outstanding issues of being a fundie, at least as I was exposed to it from my Southern Baptist and Pentecostal friends growing up in Texas

It took me so long to unlearn all of that propaganda… But now i can praise philosophy along with Boethius for casting the scales from my eyes. I have seen the light! Now to go back down in that cave where my brethren are…

Any site that lists Agnostics as a religous group has gotta lose points also.

I actually used that site in the religious forum to show that Christianity is in fact currently very dominant!

How can an agnostic be religious?

I dunno. As a former athiest, once I began to examine my own prejudices, I found athiesm to ultimately be a form of faith. I could kinda sorta maybe buy it as a religion in that way. An agnostic would be devoid of faith in any way shape or form… even the faith that religous questions can be answered.

Hi everybody,
Well, this is an interesting subject. There are a few things however that I don’t agree upon.
Hi whitelotus,

Do you seriously think that no one believes in the bible anymore? How can you prove that?

I think that you’re living in the past, when Galileo and the Church were arguing about the Sun and Earth. There are of course Fundamentalists in our day, but they are not everybody. The Church, as well as technology, has developed in time, it is not perfect. I find that it is so easy for people to look at fallacies in the history of the Church and use it as proof against it. If that is the case, who do you think took care of the people and buried the dead in Europe in the Middle Ages, especially during the Black Plague?
Also concerning religion’s application for today, probably one of the biggest differences between religion and science is that one is more concerned with what comes after life. Both have a place in our society.

Hi Marshall,
you said that

This depends on your view on what religion is. I for one believe that it is something “attainable,” not just some theory. Also, the fact that a lot of people are ceasing to be religious, does not mean that religion is collapsing.

There are still other countries besides America where Christianity resides! It is true that there are less Christians, but again, that doesn’t mean that it is in the verge of collapsing and that there is no reason to believe in Christianity. Weren’t the Jews for example murdered in the thousands in Europe? But they are even stronger now, and more united as a people.

Explain more. Why would atheists be religious? Agnostics in my mind are just undecisive which to me would be day to day opinions of religion. One day they’re afraid to be Atheists the next day they decide to practice limited amounts of religion until they find it useless again.