Chuckle,
You will probably not respond, which is fine. Besides, I really do not need your lampoons. This is just FYI.
Huge Betrayal
Genocide pops up again surprise surprise
Why doesn’t the EU just have the guts to say “Piss off Turkey, we don’t want you Muslim bastards in our nice country club…” Once and for all, they’ve been pissing Turkey about for years.
Cyprus -
“Cyprus has been divided since 1974, when Turkish troops seized its northern third in response to an Athens-engineered Greek Cypriot coup aimed at uniting the island with Greece. AFX news Ltd”
No first strike there…
Genocide -
“The European Parliament said on Wednesday that Turkey must recognise the killing of Armenians under Ottoman rule in 1915 as genocide before it can join the European Union. Reuters”
-
The Ottomans don’t exist anymore - they were exiled or killed during/after the war of independence.
-
The killing of the Armenian population - an intentional genocide, or a fuck up of management…? During the enforced exile marches of the Armenian population (which had been living in reasonable harmony with the Turkish population) management of the lines was put, or fell to the KURDİSH parmilitary (ie: bandits/warlords) due to a lack of Turkish troops who were all busy fighting the european/other allies who had decided Turkey would make a nice holiday resort, and all wanted a piece. The bad blood between the two peoples was legendery - and since the Armenians were fairly successful, and were carrying a lot of merchandise and riches on their march - the Kurds decided to relieve them of it, rape their daughters to boot, and generally masscre the lot of them. The later forced march of the ethnic Greeks was accomplished under Turkish management - and they got out about as unscathed as you can in wartime. Go figure.
Oh yes - there was a war on btw, the direction of which Atatürk was pretty much totally responsible, ie: one man against the world - things slip through cracks, or can’t be helped, bad things big things awful things.
Of course the rest of the EU countries have never done anything bad in their entire histories… Oh no, white as the driven snow they are. Millions of Jews, they [cough] just fell over your honour, Dresden, er - I pushed the button by accident… Sorry. Crusades… Well it was just boyish fun that’s all.
And America - yes, completely pristine history, sweetness and light, hands, not nukes, across the ocean. Those gooks, they had it coming, those Japs, well - it ended the war didn’t it.
Bullshit - They just want Turkey to tug its forelock and acknowledge the ‘benevolent’ tyranny of the European Union of hypocrites. Turkey should just say fuck the lot of them. It’s not as if they can’t stand on their own two feet.
As for the fall back of Turkey into fanatic İslam, balls - Kemalism still rules the roost here, and the common people and the army for the huge majority, are fanaticaly ANTI a religious government. There are religious schools - but the qualifications they offer are not recognized by the state as bonafide, and not applicable for either entrance into university, or many jobs. The wearing of headscarves by women and skullcaps by men in university is banned. Not much you think, but it weeds out the real I’m-completely-loopy fundamentalists. Turkey has its eyes firmly Westward, not East.
The EU is a short-sighted bunch of fence sitters, they can’t see what an incredible damper it would be on the whole world political climate if the West officially embraced a muslim country, that is, despite its murky past, fully deserving of that welcome. Tossers.
Fear and loathing wins again.
bypass the european racists…
coming soon… USTFTA…
united states/turkey free trade treaty…
-Imp
Tab
It seems it is principally the French contingent (and by association a few others) who are trying to block the road for Turkey. The EU is, for the most part, run by total buffons and the criminally corrupt. The British only support it because we know it’s going to fail.
It’s a pity the acronym boys couldn’t have called it the:
[size=134]“Multinational United States / Turkey Affiliated Free-trade Agreement”[/size]
But I suppose politicians can’t afford a sense of humour… 
Tab, we agree in that Western Civilization’s history is just as bloody as Middle-Eastern history, but Germany has claimed responsibilty for the Holocaust, the UK has owned up to much of its wrong doings during it colonial past, just as the US has owned up to its atrocities against Native Americans and Blacks, and paid compensation to the Japanese who were incarerated during WWII. This may be the bone of contention with accepting Turkey.
What bothers me is your mention of Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki.
When attacked a nation legally may defend itself from the attacker as they are the victims. This often includes collateral damage when retaliating against the belligerent nation instigating the assault.
The point is that Germany and Japan were flattened during WWII. They started it, we justly ended it. Funny how you use two belligerent nations to demonstrate Western ruthlessness, but do not discuss what Germany did to the UK during, or the beheading of troops and nurses by the Japanese during WWII, the death marches, maimings, etc. Most of the UK’s southern coast was flattened, with many blown to bits during the air raids. Ever seen the pictures of your land, the burning buildings, the many people maimed, etc.
And no other country, in a time of war, has ever deported factions of its populace that they decide may become 5th columnists, as a pre-emptive measure…?
Perhaps we should persuade the Kurdish National Party leaders to admit at least part of the blame while we’re at it…? If they aren’t busy bombing the crap out of Turks in the Eastern provinces and elsewhere… Oh yes, they’ve been reasonably quiet since Apo got incarcerated. Not executed btw, oh no - no death penalty here. That would be too… What’s the word… Barbaric.
While we’re dishing out the blame-pie, why not cut ourselves a slice…? Afterall, Europe and others helped accelerate the war, that pushed the fledgling Turkish republic movement to such harsh measures against its ethnic minorities… No-one’s hands are ever clean in times of conflict.
It’s a convenient excuse. The war was over 80 years ago. Is any European country the same country, in spirit and society, as it was back then…? Can you step in the same river twice…? The EU should stop dealing with the Turkey that was, and deal with the Turkey that is.
Don’t tell me that other member-countries have been subject to the same stringencies…
No, previously, the possible threats were massacred. Tab, read history.
My point is simply that other examples would be better. The U.S. and the Native Americans; the U.K. and the Indians, rather than using a WWII scenario. I did not believe I had to spell-it-out to you.
They may when Turkey acknowleges what it did as other nations have. That is all.
The point is that all have admitted to these crimes. If not, please enlighten me. I probably am mistaken.
What other nation in the EU that has commited crimes has not admitted to said crimes? I very well may be wrong, but know Germany has admitted crimes, France executed several Vichy (sp), Norway, non that I have hear d of.
Just asking, so please do not go on a lampoon binge. 
Exactly - massacred, the Turkish intent (hopefully/possibly/maybe) was to deport, not massacre with premeditation. Though I cannot say in complete faith that this was the case. The Turks did not kill the Armenians, but they did metaphorically throw them to the lions, wether knowingly or unknowingly, I don’t know.
And btw - stop with the ‘Read history’ cracks - if you do not, as you say, wish to suffer the same line of reply.
Huh…? I’m talking about the Turkish war of Independence and WWI, in which the British, the Australians and other Allies attacked Turkey, who were supported by (and supporting nominally) Germany (whom Atatürk was said to have disliked, and believed would lose), the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and the final Republic of Turkey in 1923… I mentioned incidents from WWII specifically because they happened after the Armenian atrocities.
ie: It’s a little bizzare of countries who have committed such acts more recently than Turkey, to take them to task upon the same grounds.
The Turks, until recently have been a generally short-lived people, since the republic formed a good 2-3 generations have passed and general society has changed beyond recognition, dress, education, language… Can the Europeans say the same…?
At what point are the sins of the fathers expunged by time.
The Turks are a proud race of people, their History books, which used to gloss over the less than glorious events of the beginnings of the republic, now admit the occurences. They have ‘admitted’ in easily viewable form, culpability. To be asked to appear on international TV and admit once again, like some ex-drunk in an alcoholics anonymous meeting, the massacres - that no-living Turk took part in, and the real blame of which rests in the greater part upon the shoulders of a totally separate sect of the populace, is simply not going to happen.
The EU commitee know full well the outcome of such requests and stipulations, and use it simply as a get out of jail free card, whenever they wish to give Turkey the shaft. Have I sufficiently “spelled it out for you”** …?
Let me ask you a question, do you not think, given the current situation between the West and the Muslim Middle East, that the final acceptance of a Muslim republic, or even the wholehearted offer of acceptance, into a conclave of the West, would be a good thing…? And that, amongst the countries in this area of the globe, there exists no better candidate for acceptance than Turkey…?
**You imply twice my stupidity - and then you request my forebearence upon the use of a simular tone of voice. And I thought it was just the Europeans who were hypocrites… Tidy up your posting Aspacia, or I will beat my plough-shares back into swords.
Tab,
No, never said you are stupid and do not believe so. Everyone cannot be expert in every discipline, and your discipline is English, no?
Even a historian, and I am one, cannot know all of history, I sure don’t, and have courage to admit it.
Again, no insult was intended. I hope this clears up my post.
I am off to work and will respond later.
[.quote]
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Yes, this is the information I am looking for before I make a stand. At least they did not masscre the possible threats.
Sorry, no insult intended, especially since you live there, and know more regarding Turkey’s history than do I. I only have a rudimentary knowledge, and this is why I ask.
Ah, but my problem was with the examples you used, nothing else. IMO some wars are Just Wars.
At what point will the U.S.A. live down the Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dreden bombings? Many liberals, such as yourself, still throw this in our faces.
If this has occured, and I have not seen it mentioned in the media, Yes. they, like the West need to accept blame just as any other country. Now, where are the media sources to support your claim? Where are the Turkish government’s sources to support your claim?
Again, please do not return to your lampoons.
No, I would like links to your claims. When and who have accepted responsiblity for the atrocities?
Not that any world leader cares what I think, but no, I need proof, that is, I am suspending judgement until you provide proof. You are better versed in Turkey than I, so please help out. Just remember, I will consider both sides before I decide.
Again, no insult was ever intended. Remember, I am acknowledging that you know more regarding regarding Turkey.
Again, I found errors, but could not locate them in the Edit screen. Yes, I have glasses.
Also, I have found several errors in my posts, but my eyes are terrible, and even though I see the errors in the Preview, I often cannot locate them when proofing my posts. Sorry regarding my errors.
Not to be rude (it appears this discussion is between you and tab) but when exactly did this happen? I cannot recall the government ever apologizing to the Native Americans…
Hell, we still celebrate Columbus Day and Columbus slaughtered countless numbers of Native Americans.
Hi Aspacia,
No links to actual Turkish School History book texts, they aren’t online.
Here’s a link I dug up: Hi - I’m a link
The most pertinent bit I think is:
“After decades of denying that the killings—which Armenians round the world regard as genocide—ever took place, Turkey in April called on international scholars to determine once and for all what really happened, saying they were free to examine the Ottoman archives. This invitation from Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the prime minister”
Okay - still not the hand-wringing apologies that the EU wish - but a gesture of goodwill, as I said, a proud people, very nationalistic, but not-threatingly so, as one of the main tenents of Kemalism is against empire-building and acts of aggression outside of Türkiye’s borders.
Sure, but the EU dictators want Turkey to kneel and beg for forgiveness
I’m still waiting for the EU to come up anything that doesn’t smack of a thousand vested interests. After the farce that was the draft constitution I envisage a new series ‘Yes, EP minister’. We take the basic format of Yes, Minister and follow a young, welsh female* minister for the European Parliament whose ideals are quashed by an atmosphere of second-guessing and snouts in the trough. The original series did toy with the idea of sending James off to Europe, but Humphrey persuades him against the idea.
I apologise if I’ve trivialised this thread
- Welsh being the ideal comic accent
Hey Tabula,
I am curious about the culture there. What is your day-to-day like? Are you in a large city - describe the restaurants, museums, nightlife, shopping — how hard is it for you to have made that change? Sorry for the switch of the subject, but I am really curious.
(if you are anything like me, having kids buries you in diapers and mayhem… but I thought I would ask anyway)
Hey, not rude at all, jump in if you have information to offer. I welcome this.
Yep, after the Native American’s slaughter many of his people. Yes, we have acknowledged our part in the Trail of Tears, etc., this is why so many Native Americans live in sovereign nations, and make many of their own laws. Many are very rich, many are very poor, and many receive welfare and aid from the government.
Yes, I am well aware of the huge problems they face with alcoholism, (a genetic problem) suicide, education, etc. A total lack of esteem as we decimated their culture. We washed their children’s mouths out with soap if they spoke in their native tongue, took them away from their parents and forced them into American boarding schools to Anglicise them, etc.
We are well aware, we are also aware of the many atrocities they committed against the colonists. This is well documented. Men, women and children were often burned alive, tortured to death, skinned alive, albeit, nothing unusual, as the Native Americans did this to their enemy tribes.
That’s weird, I’ve been thinking all day about writing a snapshot of life in modern-day Turkey, I switch on the computer, and POW Bessy’s already read my mind… 
Anyroad - Here, Tabula’s Turkey…
Stepping off the plane at 3am in the morning, alone, with nothing, knowing no-one - and the heat just rolling over me. Walking down to the school for the first time, staring intently at landmarks so I could find my way back, dressed in ragged jeans, heavy boots and a vest, my hair down to the middle of my back. And being the absolute centre of attention. A whole street’s worth of necks just swiveling as I passed. My boss taking one look at me and saying “John - you must wear nice clothes…” The total soul-calming daily silence resulting from the complete incomprehension of anything written or heard.
Teaching a class comprised of three 16 year old girls about my hair-brained idea of colliding universes, with complex boardmarker diagrams, and them just sitting with eyes as round as saucers. A fisherman and a gluehead kid pulling gutting knives on us on the promenade at 5am in the morning, and my friend pulling a gun. Paying for my first bar-bill with an amount of money so ridiculously small, I couldn’t help but fall off my chair laughing. A man on the TV, live, completely unintelligible, cutting off his own fingers with an axe. A teenage boy, desperate to get his girlfriend back, setting fire to himself on the roof of her building and going up like a torch. The immense kindness of my new Turkish friends. The only villager at my wedding who spoke reasonable English pulling out the koran in English, and showing me the page where it said “Christians are unclean”. My near-hysterical laughter. A guy I barely knew from a class I’d taught, travelling for 14 hours, just to be at our wedding reception. The village idiot trying to steal my watch. Being hunted by a pack of street dogs on my way back from the local shop.
The crunch as the doctor reset my nose with his thumbs. Seeing my nephew’s circumcision, done without anaesthetic, by the local barber. His father crying, and proclaiming his son’s passage into manhood. My feelings of envy toward the boy. My attempts at dancing the Harmandela bringing tears of laughter to the villagers. Talking to the local Imam, and saying “Evet, evet, evet”. Winning my first arguement in fluent Turkish, after a small car-crash. Listening to a class of 10 year olds telling me they all wanted to be Doctors and Lawyers when they grew up. Sitting in the cinema, feeling something wasn’t right. Then realizing the film was dubbed into Turkish, and I hadn’t noticed. The elation that produced. Finding out that after 6 months of marriage, my wife wasn’t half-Chinese.
Communicating without speech. Picture and paper, dictionaries, a beautiful candle-lit face across the table from mine. Dancing. Hiding in the wardrobe for 4 hours, with a plate of pasta and a glass of wine, holding the door shut with my foot, as my future brother in law’s kid tried to open it. An old farmer, offering me his daughter, and tying the red-ribbon of virginity around my bride to be’s waist. And it not being a lie. Trying to imagine what he was feeling. My gratitude. Sitting on the balcony, nude, smoking, feeling re-born. A row about the height of a row of coatpegs. Being the only one in the cinema to laugh out loud during TrainSpotters.
A flatbed truck upside down on fire on the motorway on the way to work. The two cars ahead of me smashing into eacthother. The dirver of a minibus dolmuş leaping out with a tyre-iron in his hand and smashing the window of a car that refused to move. The startled faces of the schoolchildren inside. Following a truck with a towering mass of furniture teetering, waving at the teenagers sitting on the armchairs at the top. Buying manure from a little bent old Kurd with a horse and cart. Broadsiding another car at a crossroads, the dog leaping in the back seat. Shaking hands and walking back to our cars, because it was Ramadan, and we were both late. Being able to drive as fast as I am capable.
Walking down the street arm in arm with my new drinking pal Murat. Pulling away because my English homophobia would not allow this contact. Kissing men on both cheeks in greeting and goodbye. Outraged disbelief at being asked to go out and buy medical supplies for an operation in progress on my wife. My wife still woozey from the anaethetic, begging me not to punch the surgeon. Staring daggers at the racist bitch behind the counter at the post office ripping up my christmas presents, spilling soft toys and turkish delight across the counter. Other people wondering what the fuss was about. Being told to go back where I came from. Being welcomed like a son by strangers. Feeling disgusted to be of the same race as obnoxious English tourists. Leaping 30 feet into the sea, after 5 minutes of fear, and watching 7 year old boys dash out gleefully into space ahead of this shaking foreigner. Teaching my wife to swim. Being led up a gorge by a goat-like 12 year old. The refreshing total lack of any safety measures.
People in the street standing stock-still as a minute passed in remeberence of Atatürk’s death, an old man knocking a youth off a bicycle for daring to break the stillness. Realizing that at this instant, the whole country was equally motionless, feeling oh so very very foreign. And knowing something of what England had lost. Watching with increasing horror, as Turkey becomes more and more lost under the influence of Western junkfood media. Telling unbelieving students how foolish they are when they tell me their deepest wish is to leave, to find somewhere… Better. The clearess of the sea away from the cities. The absolute tear-welling pollution of the bay in İzmir, the strange absence left when it was finally cleaned. The emptiness of Turkey. How easy it is the stray only slightly off the beaten path, and know that you are quite possibly the first human in centuries, to put foot to this stretch of scrub, to stand and look down from this hilltop.
Forgetting what rain feels like. Walking back from the pub for miles, drunk and stumbling, without the thought of anything bad happening even crossing my mind. Being headbutted inefficiently by a drunk in a pub in York on my frist trip home. Chidren playing without fear in sunlit streets. Strangers chucking babies chins. Seeing a beautiful girl on every street. The lack of fat people. Being able to stare, being stared at. Smiling and being smiled at in return. Saying “iyigünler” to anyone, the everyday politeness in every form of social transaction. Carpets and the smell of new leather.
The litter and dust in the streets, the total spotlessness of people’s homes. Men snorting and washing out their ears before going into the mosque. Not noticing the call to prayer anymore. Then noticing, the sounds rolling over the city like stuttered thunder as the sun goes redly down into the sea, the smell of woodsmoke and the coolness of the glass in my hand as I look out from my friends roof over the termite glory of İzmir at dusk.
The warm weight of my child in my arms as I carry him half-sleeping from a street wedding at midnight, remembering the joy on his face as he danced an spun in a sea of legs. Staring at the myriad razor-scars on the chest of a fanatic fan of Muslim-Baba, a singer of old and faded songs of past glories. Laughing at the hopless accents of Turkish actors playing foreign parts in soap-operas. Watching politicians fist fight in parliment live on TV… Again. The awful crowded noisy magnificence of İstanbul at night.
Admiring the stoicism of the grandmother, pulled out of the rubble left from the İzmit quake, after 3 days without food, water or hope, telling the film crew “I was bored.” My bathwater shaking. The wardrobe doors clattering in the night. Standing on the street in utter darkness, in my dressing gown, with the entire local population, waiting for aftershocks.
The stupidity of politicians. The embezzlement, the nepotism, the asslickers in power, the petty loser-tyrants. The constant amazement that the country still seems to work. The stupidity of my boss. The total lack of thought that leaves social comedy and chaos in its wake. The lack of the dole. The tightness of family. Cunning old men posing as magicians and fleecing gullible housewives. Superstition. My friend’s wife being terrified of the Djinn that lived in her kitchen. Realizing that I was actually quite good at my job. That I could live here. That I could survive.
And the sun. The simply so hot its just getting stupid now and what the hell possessed me to walk up this bloody mountain anyway sun.
Fascinating.
And I am so glad that I asked. When you have a moment, I would like you to write some more. Tab. Really good stuff.
That is all good and dandy, but you made the claim that the US, and by US I presume you mean the US government, has owned up to the attrocities committed against the Native Americans. You have yet to provide any evidence of this happening.