For the level 31 philosopher

“I have the same objection whenever I see someone use “ethical” or “moral” as if their narrow conception of either is the only and correct one as a universal.”

as requested, this is an expansion of my point:

when someone claims that (abortion, taxes, murder, war, crime, sex, whatever) is unethical or claims that it is immoral I am left to immediately ask :“according to which ethical/moral standard?”

to claim something is unethical or immoral without establishing which system of morality one uses to make the normative claim is like claiming that this object is 15 units long…

what is a unit? (and don’t bring moon into it)

-Imp

A do-it-yourself sweater kit

-Gimp

impenitent, from whom are you quoting?

Main foundations of logic and decency, codes and laws for interaction with life on earth, much like the word “reason” or “efficiency”, some “universal morality” Q&A is refering to things that only an idiot wouldn’t consider to be correct or most efficient.

Doh, I asked for this thread and then didnt bother to check for it until now. My apologies.

Actually I was anticipating that you would argue something else, so, imagine my surprise when you write:

I agree.

Commonly, in regards to normative claims, the typical approach is, if one even bothers to give support, such support deals with that claim in particular. It is presented as evidence for the claim, like “Bob is unethical” (note, this is not in reference to Bob of the religion forum)

Why is Bob unethical?

One does not answer “Well, he values the happiness of the few over the many” or “he has no regard for duty” “Bob violates the precepts of the Christian faith” …rather, one lists specific examples
“Bob beats his wife” “Bob molests his kids” and so on.

But as you were saying, often it never even goes that far.

In both cases what goes unexamined are the underlying arguments upon which the normative claim itself rests.

Currently I am writing a paper on John Rawls, and his version of the Social Contract. It is eye opening, the number of unstated or barely examined assumptions one must make to arrive at “Justice as Fairness”. But, in Rawls’ defense, by even attempting to build his system he allows for the conditions where such assumptions could be discussed, debated, reasoned about. This would seem to be the only time when such is done, when an ethical system is being built, as it is then that it will be defended.

Afterwards, folks just assume, knowingly or unknowingly, that their view is confirmed by, well, their view.

myself and an imaginary generic moralist/ethicist

-Imp

the fact that not every moral agent -that of whom moral action is demanded as duty - may not have complete possession of the “proper” faculty of judgment should immediately render the rawlsian (as well as kantian) position suspect…

-Imp

Pah, I killed the level 31 boss ages ago. Level 32 is where it’s at. You even get a +6 edition of the Myths of Plato which does +5 ancient damage and defends very well against existentialist magic.

Games! All of them.

Relativism and subjectivism aren’t only impossible positions to uphold but they also aren’t positing a real problem because of several proposition “sleights.”

A claim about a thing such as ‘morality’ is treating ‘morality’ as if it were an object, something that is true or false, or, is or is not. From here a proposition will ask not only if an action is “moral,” but also if it is morally “good” or “bad.” But the only thing that can be asked legally here is whether or not there are morals taking place. Essentially the only question asked so far is: what is the difference between amoral and moral.

A relativist or subjectivist question regarding the nature of morals, after the rule is established that I mentioned above, becomes a metaethical proposition and therefore loses any of its real contingent authenticity-- the question doesn’t deal with whether or not there is such a thing as “good” or “bad,” but rather if certain acts are either good or bad. These premises are granted before the question can be asked, for to ask a moral statement that does not evaluate something is an empty concept, and such a question would be smoke.

The prescription precedes the premise in the assertion that morals cannot be objective, but not because morals aren’t objective, rather because qualities such as “good” and “bad” must be treated as objective functions in the proposition, that is, as happening or not happening. For example, the relativist might say:

“His act wasn’t objectively wrong.”

Look at the anatomy of the propostion and consider what premises must be in place for it to have a true/false potential. What is not assumed is that morality does not exist, because the subject of “wrong” is an evaluation. Just as if it were reversed, and “good,” it would there too be an evaluation. So far the relativist isn’t arguing that morals do not exist, but instead: which morals are right and wrong.

But he can’t do that. That’s smoke. What he can do, however, is propose that morals do not exist, but again this is an argument that does not concern epistemology and the logical consequences of propositions. For how could I know the difference between a moral event and a nonmoral event? Without the levels or degrees and valuations, that is, their “relative” value, I wouldn’t know where to look.

A subjectivist/relativist claim about morality must always be metaethical or impossible. The word-question simply cannot be asked without the rules of logic following it into certain and rigid definitions, not only for its concept value but also its truth function in the proposition. To merely make a statement is to assume some objective truth. Somebody put the gag back on the relativist.

Also you might have a look at the thread in the essays forum entitled “Why I am not an Ethical Relativist” by our resident Mexican Phenomenologist “Friedrich.”

the problem with these post so far has been the vagueness.

BoB is unethical. This is a pretty meaningless statement.
You must have an actually event to discuss to discuss morals.

So here we go, IMP shoot future man. Is this a moral act?
Well lets finish this action. At the trial, Imp was released as
innocent. But how could that be Imp shot Future man. Imp
admitted it. The evidence showed it. The gun was found and tested,
and proved it, and still IMP was found innocent. An immoral act
was committed, and still no punishment for IMP. God said, thou
shall not kill. And yet imp killed without punishment. How can this to be?

What looks to be an absolute moral wrong is really about something
else. You must look at the facts and motivation of both men.
Killing is not an absolute crime. Let us say, Imp was a policeman and
future man was a crook, and imp order future man to stop, he did not
and and all know if you disobey a cop, you will get shot. That is how they
work, shot first ask question later. Or perhaps IMP, was a soldier in
pursuit of an AL qaeda operative, and Imp had information the operative
knows as future man, was going to blow something up. Not only wouldn’t IMP get jail, if it stop a plot, he would get a parade down
5th ave. Or perhaps Fm had a bomb on a bus full of children.
FM goes down no problem. You cannot make a statement,
this act or action is immoral, now and forever, because it must
exist in time and space, with all kinds of things impacting on it,
such a motivations, with sanity, with intent, goal. The simple act
of murder, Imp shotting future man. Is not so simple, and cannot
simply be labeled as unethical or immoral, or right or wrong.
You must place ethical acts into the action of life and what are
clear ethical concerns in theory, then become shaky
ethical concerns in life. You cannot isolate ethics into absolute
right and wrong in theory. It doesn’t work in real life.
Life is messy.

Kropotkin

Okay detrop, you managed to garner my attention.

So if epistemology fails, and the manner you presented your definitions appears concise enough to support that equitably, how then will metaethics succeed?

Simply, the construct itself, through superior definitions, or different logical premise start point, or different methodology?

I came to post to argue with you, but after considering it I really must agree. When debating matters on such a level, as SIATD was highlighting in his original post there almost should be a convention these days that writers are obliged to state their moral system of choice. And if they don’t know which it is, well then they shouldn’t be writing at all!

Excellently put, a problem I have has with subjectivity that I have struggled for a long time to put into words! However, was Imp really asking this? I felt he is showing that unless you state which standpoint you are coming from before you make a statement about morality, the judgement is lost on others as meaningless or completely misinterpreted.

That’s missing the point of the question, all attempts at an objective moral theory have to take into account circumstance. The 10 commandments are a red herring as the level of understanding in the populace wasn’t there, so simple rules were easier to convey. Circumstances are not the issue, the issue is about the meaningless of an ethicasl judgement without understanding the writer’s ethical standpoint.

i only skimmed the post here because im to lazy to read through all of it but…
anyone here ever read Camus’s The Stranger. im pretty sure you all have.
the philosophy of the absurd…

though Camus does not explicitly refer to the philosophy of the absurd in The Stranger, the tenets of absurdity operate within the novel. neither the external world in which Meursault lives nor the internal world of his thoughts and attitudes possesses any rational order. Meursault has no discernable reason for his actions, such as his decision to kill the Arab.

moral values do not exist as undoubted truths, they exist merely as social constructions and within individuals. if ones basic instinct is not moral then whos to say they are guilty of any crime against humanity.

morality is a relative term, it does not exist absolutely and therefore it is simply something that one can only apply idealistically.

that does not mean that morals cannot be useful altruistically however.