Founding Fathers would be ashamed!

“A country that is willing to sacrifice freedom for security, deserves neither.” - Benjamin Franklin

Do you think Ben would be happy to see what Bush has done to his dream?

Bush isn’t the first.

Lincoln and both Roosevelts were much worse in this regard. Especially FDR.

EDIT: Johnson should be on that list, too.

Oh, I know. I just say that now because the Patriot Act, which just thinking about makes me furious beyond any resonable belief.



Arguing ‘you too’ really doesn’t do much, does it?

I don’t see your point.

I was merely objecting to the implication that the recent events were the first, or worst, instances of freedom-trampling in history. Bush pales in comparison to some of the individuals I named previously.

That very much depends on whose freedom is being trampled Kurt. If you mean Americans, we’re fine except for the Patriot Act (grrr…), but if you mean Iraqis, well, let’s just say I hope they find the destruction of their homes and needless slaughter of their families worth “liberation,” which in this case means that they will soon be ruled by someone whose first loyalty will be to America instead of to his own people.

Yes, heaven forbid anyone should die in a war.

Really? I never would have though people would die in a war…

I’m saying that the whole idea of this war in itself is rediculous, inhumane, and above all, driven by greed!

Insane and ridiculous? How so?

You’re right–the US is being greedy. It’s protecting its own interests by eliminating a threat to its own security. That IS greedy–but there’s nothing wrong with being greedy in that sense.

How are the civilians a threat to us? I agree with you, Saddam should have been removed from power, but this was NOT the right way to do it!

How would you have done it, then?

Irrational people cannot be conquered by reason, as they have abandoned it. The only thing they understand is force. Therefore, the only rational way to deal with an irrational individual is to use force–which is why force is justified in self-defense.

They weren’t. They aren’t. Which is why they were not, and are not, targetted by the military. If I have tumor in my brain that I can operate on now, but soon might not be able to while it simultaneously becomes fatal, I’m going to have it removed. Very likely some other areas of my brain are going to be affected, and that’s truly regrettable, but it’s rediculous to say “How were the innocent brain areas a threat to you?”

Saddam Hussein was not a threat to the US, directly or indirectly. That’s the biggest myth of the war, Saudi Arabia however is.


Interesting article.

One more thing, that Clarence Darrow quote is perfect (and might I say very befitting of the Bush family).