Is freedom of speech an absolute? No! There can be obvious scenarios when it is in the public interest for absolute freedom to be curtailed. At the moment inciting racial hatred etc is not allowed BUT where should the line be drawn?
There is the argument that one should distinguish between offence and harm (also potential harm)
For example if a right wing extreme group such as the BNP is given a platform it can be argued that they have the right to cause offence but if they preach violence to minorities or imply it, they do not have the right to promote harm.
Possibly one can distinguish between harm and offence as follows:
The example of Holocaust denial, possibly in the context of the UK causes emotional damage in general and therefore offence but in Germany it causes more psychological damage and therefore harm.
Freedom of speech can be limited only in as much as it is reasonable for it to be considered to cause harm or misrepresent
What makes you think that you have that ‘freedom/right’ at all?
I am in Amerikkka and there is no guarantee of ‘free speech’ here (other than regarding ‘political speech’ on public property,… and the ‘stormtroopers’ will tazer you anyway).
I think that the only ‘freedom’ of speech, is the freedom to keep your mouth shut. If you have any ‘free-will’, any ‘choice’, the only ‘freedom’ that cannot be taken (hence a ‘freedom/right’ and not a ‘privelege’) is the freedom to say nothing!
Odd how little that ‘freedom’ is exercised…
[size=150]T[/size]here is no freedom of speech in society whatsoever. The appearance of free speech extends only so far as you believe and say what society does. Free speech is my naïvité in believing that I have thought any different than society has taught me to. Insofar as I confine myself (knowingly or unknowingly) to parroting society, I can imagine that society is extending me its great mercy as free speech.
“[size=150]O[/size]h great society! grant me the right to speak,” “Allow me to express myself,” “Give me the freedom to say as I like.” In these appeals the whole lie is exposed; must I ask society’s permission to say what I like?
[size=150]J[/size]ust say one word that society does not like, and you will discover quickly just how little free speech you have.
[size=150]I[/size] would frame the question of free speech very differently; as a tactical question; how can I exercise the free speech (that God hath given me in the form of my vocal cords) without society gagging me? The answer is not a matter of strategy (our objective is already clear), but one of tactics; who will loan me the use of his printing press? what proxy service will allow me to register on this BBS after I’ve been banned? how can I avoid detection and arrest for what I mean to say?
Freedom of Thought should come before Freedom of Speech…
I think maybe the BNP should be allowed a public platform especially debate on something like Question Time and then they will be shown for what they are instead they are free to preach in areas where they can manipulate and exploit small minds.
These are completely subjective, in fact most advertising and media cause both harm and offence.
And so any criticisms towards the practices of Islam shouldn’t be allowed because of this harm and misrepresent? I disagree.
There is neither free speech nor free thought in any particular society, especially in the U.S.
I was watching a program last night about Hitler and his Vrill secret-society. I was astounded by how much propaganda and emotional reasoning was put into the program, by labeling Hitler and the Nazi party as “evil!!!”. Yet, here we are as Americans, a nation that Hitler emulated with his racism against the Jews. He attempted to exterminate a race of people and failed, while here in the U.S., we exterminated a race of people with success. Not only that, but we also enslaved a whole other race of people and to this day, the white man has not paid for their crimes against the black man. It’s pretty ironic and thus, funny to me to see the hypocrisies of the American people. Public school history, as I was taught it, is basically a get-out-of-jail-free card for white children.
“Teacher, teacher!”
Yes, little Billy?
“Where did all the Indians go?”
Oh little Billy, well, they were magicians and turned their bodies into spirits after envisioning the coming of the white settlers.
I have a growing interest in how we describe people as evil, bad, corrupt etc. It seems like the only way we can account for the horrific actions of man is to denounce their humanity, Hitler does bad because he is evil, not because he was simply a man in a position to exercise his will, a psychologically imbalanced man maybe But theres no need to ask why horrific actions were allowed to take place, the answer is he was evil, forget the social context that allows such figures to exist and rule.
Which race did we exterminate? the Amer.Indians? Which nation? Now in the beginning the smaller tribes were wiped out but that was more due to disease than purpose and it was not just the US Govt. doing it, They sort of did fight amongst themselves too. And we enslaved an entire race??? Dude, have you seen Africa? Do you recall how Nigeria came into being? How many slaves were there per master? how many people actually owned slaves? Slaves were not cheap. The average US citizen could not afford to own even one slave. Look at the actual numbers not the propaganda crap. Slave owners were in the minority. yet we all are slave owners? what crap!
Mindless public propaganda drivel, there was a whole “nation” of people on America before the colonizers came deary. America was not an empty land.
Now, we own the place. Fuck their dead bodies! Point out some Indian graves that I can piss on. You don’t see Indians around for a reason. They’re dead.
Survival of the fittest in action…
Which “disease” wiped the Indian out again? Oh yes, here we go…
Oh shieeeet!!! That puts a damper on your story Kris. And Wikipedia has some typos – let me fix them…
This should read, “immediately followed European ex-PLOIT-ation”.
This should read, “80% of PRACTICALLY ALL Native populations died due to European diseases after first contact.”
LOLFACTS! You truly gotta love American propaganda, infecting simple-minds to this day. We still can’t get it right; the white man has done well for himself. Though, I was born retarded. I don’t enjoy lying to myself. My white ancestors were vile bastards indeed. The biggest error is believing that I’m somehow removed from this past. I’m not. Neither are you Kris, nor anybody else here. And I’m not talking about guilt either.
Which justifies exterminating them…
Guilty by association, if you see your neighbors owning slaves, as part of your same country, aren’t you condoning it?
Yes, you are, which is exactly why God-knows how much of the foreign world hates Americans. There’s no such thing as an American individual; we’re all part of the same program. If you call yourself a U.S. citizen, then you are responsible for your American history. You can’t avoid it by denying it, no matter what emotions those feelings might elicit from you.
On a side note, after watching a propaganda show on Hitler’s “evil” nature, I watched Quigly Down Under too. It was back-to-back propaganda. The bad guy in the movie wants to exterminate the Australian aborigines and Quigly, being such a GOOD & MORAL AMERICAN MAN smacks the bad guy around for mentioning such a horrid thing. Then again, where did the Native American Indians go? Ah yes, they “assimilated”, or died, but mostly DIED, 80% at least in fact. Ain’t history grand? I think it is.
I still enjoy Quigly Down Under; it was a good movie.
Good to see you as well.
Where’s my little heart-emoticons? Why can’t I find them!? I must not have any…
It looks like there’s a lot of free speech going on here and on other message boards. Free speech like freedom in general is the right to say or do stupid things as long as they don’t cause physical harm to others. Realunoriginal being a perfect example. Basically we still have free speech in the US, but not for long if the Dems have their way, shutting down talk radio and “regulating” the Internet as they propose.
What makes you think that I don’t read a whole post before I begin to respond to it?
No, they are not “nations”, unless you consider 10 acres of “reservation” a “nation”.
I disagree.
First of all, it doesn’t really matter about their diversification, because “white” man connotes men of many European nations: Slavic, Aryan, Nordic, etc. The classifications that I have been talking about are “Native American Indian” compared to “White Man”. This is the racial distinction that is thrust into young children’s minds. And the Native American Indian was exterminated by how I define “extermination”. To exterminate a people, you must destroy their culture and identity. Americans were successful in this, as Hitler and other fascist leaders have admired us (U.S.) for.
Native American Indians had a choice to make: assimilate or die. They chose both, but mostly the latter!!!
Only the whites are condemned if the person condemning them is a moron. I know the context of American history. I know that Indians were violent like Europeans were. This is not inconsistent with what I’ve said. I have merely stated that American propaganda is despicable, because it is hypocritical…
“Teacher, teacher, where did all the Indians go?”
Well little Timmy, your male ancestors killed them all.
“Wha–wha–whyyy teacher???”
Well little Timmy, it’s natural for men to bash skulls in, rape women, steal land, and make slaves out of the survivors.
(This teacher is going to get fired, even though he’s right!)
I would never ask a woman to feel guilty about anything. Feeling guilt implies that you are capable for responsibility outside of child-rearing.
I’m going to pay for this one, I know it… :-"
My use of wiki here is to present to you how easily observable the facts of Indian “disease” is. I can find you a dozen sources on how the Indians were “diseased”. The truth an reality is, though, when you go to war with a whole continent of people and find out you can exterminate them by touching them, like you would exterminate insects in your home, it’s a feasible strategy and solution to killing enemies that you feel no pity or remorse for. Now, in retrospect, American children are taught that empathizing is a good thing, when it commonly isn’t so in the history books. Empathy itself is not commonly understood, despite our attempts for it. Empathy is a privilege, in connection with intellect and leadership. The common American settler didn’t empathize with Indians; they demonized them! They wanted them all dead! Our white leaders made propaganda and created stories of fear (some true, some false) in order to make our brainless soldiers trigger-happy. This is the truth of it!
And now, in little Timmy’s history books, the facts are all wrong, because some asshole mothers and fathers feel guilty about what they are responsible for. And they are responsible for it, and I am, and you are, insofar as you are American citizens. If you ascribe yourself into American citizenship, then you take part in its history. You sign up for it. Now, you may not care and you my have no empathy or feelings for the deceased, but I do. It is mainly a Christian sentiment, but it is also a human one. If I aim to learn and be a true philosopher, then I aim to know all sides of every story. What I see happening with little Timmy and this American “free speech” propaganda is that us white men demolished and exterminated a whole continent of people, and then, on top of that (success), we chose, and continue to choose, to spit on their graves to elate our collective egos. We make our little girly-girls and girly-boys feel good knowing that they’re not responsible for a God-damned thing! Fuck that! Nobody’s responsible for anything, so maybe I will take all this on myself! Nobody wants responsibility for anything; it’s sickening.
They assimilated or died, but mostly died. They were exterminated.
There is no Native American Indian “nation” and the only land that they walk upon is the leftover excrement that the U.S.A. has no need for.
“Owning it” is everything! This is what you don’t understand about me, or maybe men in general. That’s what men are all about.
That depends on the contexts that you’re using for morals and ethics. I do not plan to teach my children hypocrisy if I get that far in life.
Judging them is learning from them. We judge their actions as we judge our own. Despite us being more “mature”, collectively, this has nothing to do with skewing the facts. Our collective society lives in a dream. They do not “learn” from our ancestors. Little Timmy doesn’t stand a fucking chance.
And I disagree; maturation does not necessarily imply a change in ethical and moral stands. They can stay consistent.
…what???
I have come to the conclusion that children, women, and feminized men are not capable of responsibility of any kind, so I might agree with you.
I never condemned our ancestors. I respect and admire them actually.
First its not about, land. 10 people can be a nation. While the Indian nations of which there are 500 of them, may not be huge or even large they still have mostly autonomy on their land. Something you and I do not and cannot have. Our Gov’t must ask permission via the Bureau of Indian Affairs to even come onto their land. Don’t you wish you had that? Even if they have warrants they still have to ask permission., Too bad I am not enough Cherokee to get that
The nations that I grew up with and around are proud of who they are and their heritage. Sure they are assimilated to the cultures of the US, but, they still retain their ancestoral ways to an extent, sure it was lost for a while but, now many nations are insisting their children learn their native language and culture. A big shift from 30 years ago.
All of us humans have been assimilated into foreign cultures. There is no one culture, it is a big stew of world culture , bits and pieces from many different groups. Not just one. Most folks don’t get that. Exterminating the whole and keeping some is part of what we do when we assimilate another group. Were the Amer. Indians treated any worse than other groups? No and yes. Some groups were treated far worse and were truly exterminated their existence only lies in stories. Nothing else remains of them. No culture no technology, not even a pottery shard. Would you bear the weight of that responsibility?
Your ancestors did that as did mine as did everyone’s. The only responsibility that we should bear is to learn right from wrong to mature morally and ethically. Time should not be a factor. Just because a culture and a people were wiped out a thousand years ago or 200 years ago does not make one more horrible. Both are equal. If a nation 1 million people are wiped out or a nation of 500 are wiped out the tragedy remains the same. The loss is the same.
Bearing responsibility of our ancestors actions should only be learning from them. You do have to empathize to a degree if you are to learn. To brow beat it though is to mire yourself and not move forward.
People bear no responsibility today because of the damn physchologists that popped up. It was not the women’s right movement. It was the shrinks telling people to not say no to their kids. Ever read Dr. Spock? He and his cronies fucked up a few generations all over the world. A simple swat on your kid’s butt is considered abuse. Denying a kid something is abuse. Telling your kid to shut up and sit down is abuse. The lists of how they fucked up the past few generations goes on. Chidlren have been raised to be selfish and irresponsible. Me first everyone else second. Family responsibility is gone. You can see that in a few threads here. If your family is different from you and they give you a hard time say Fuck them and go your own way they are trash. WTF??? Females and males must bear that responsibility. Kids learn from their elders and guess what kids do ? they do what their elders do except in spades. Women going to work did not do this. Parents raising their kids according to physchological teachings did this. Oh and my favorite, it taught kids to blackmail. If you don’t do what I want then I will report you or hate you or leave. They grew up this way… This is the average world citizen of today. Me first you last.
We as a nation and a world gave up rights when we bow to such. Freedom of speech is not free, Freedom of thought is not free. As a nation we cower under the guise of what passes for civilization according to selfish protocols. Its not just the USA either it is any civilized country. From China to the US. The only real conspiracy is the one we have created in ourself. Think on this what can anyone really do to you if you break some law? They can’t do a darn thing unless you let them. If you let them catch you, then you chose to let them. Its not that hard to disappear. So why are our prisons filled? Why are any prisons anywhere filled? Because folks choose to remain and not disapear.
I won’t bear the reponsibility of what people did in the past. I will empathize with the victims and learn what not to do. But, I did not do the deed. If I fail to learn then I may as well have done it because it will repeat. Learning is the only responsibility we should bear, not guilt by association. Damn life is hard enough, and human history is full of such crap. I would mire myself if I did what you suggest. Uh uh no way , not gonna happen. There is too much work to do on me and around me for those around me. I do not have time nor the space to bear the world history on my shoulders. It would only serve a false ego if I did.
I can’t make you pay for that comment, as I read it, it was unexpected and gave me a belly laugh. I darn near spit coffee onto the screen. For that I thank you. I think one of the greatest gifts we can give each other is laughter even at our own expense. I probably will return it though :-"
The Europeans didn’t purposefully cause the death of the Native Americans they came over to North America (and i’m sure the first contact between groups, even peaceful contact resulted in spreading plauge) and engaged with them/exploited them.
The point is that the Europeans didn’t attempt to try and exploit the Native Americans, to the point in which they were already exploiting themselves. Out of all Native American groups studied, only like 4.5 can be called ‘peaceful’ they lived in geographic isolation from the others. Theres plenty of examples, like in South Dakota, crow creek where we find the remains of 500 men, women and children mutilated/scalped and tortured before death, like 60% of the population/settlement wiped out, while the rest either fled to die in the wild or were females and were abducted for breeding.
The Europeans didn’t bring the type of violence storm or exploitation storm on native americans to the point that natives were already doing to themselves. The dogrib indians wiped out the yellowknife tribe; into extinction. There were some tribes famous for exactly how common/well they tortured other peoples. Other natives.
The main reason the european’s raped the natives so bad, was by spreading disease, through released pigs, through contact.
IF europeans try and contact modern un contacted tribes, the death-rate is usually primarily, one thing. disease.
Not that the European’s could be held up as peaceful or worthy of being thought like that. But they definatly were a lot more civilized and less violent than almost every single native american tribe.
Where? What BBSs are you reading? When something unpopular is written or shown, the post is deleted and the user is banned. On occasion however, a BBS may form which, while offensive to the mores of the larger community, is internally tolerant of its own free speech. For the censors, a week or two is all and the BBS is closed by pressure on the host; first the content of the board is gone, then the address is 404 Not Found. In some rare cases a BBS may have power to defend itself, in which case, more complicated mechanisms of marginalization are used.
As a definition of free speech, this is at best “stupid.”
“Basically,” you have not encountered any resistance to your speech, because you haven’t anything to show or say which is outside the box, or are too afraid to say it; hence the possibility of your belief in free speech.
Thought police would mean you weren’t free to continue, the opposite of what I said…you see.
Freedom has nothing to do with popularity. In many cases the Truth is very unpopular. Censorship is the opposite of freedom in any case. Freedom is the ability to tell the truth (or lie as long as it causes no physical harm) without interference except to agree or disagree. If you’re the only one on the board, right or wrong, you’re still free. Others are free to ban you from their boards simply for being obnoxious. Censorship is purely a government function.
See, you, and everyone else, are free to disagree, however stupid that might be.
Really? Then you have a strange way of agreeing with me???
The only fear I could have is of being wrong, so why would I be afraid?
But theres no need to ask why horrific actions were allowed to take place, the answer is he was evil, forget the social context that allows such figures to exist and rule.
So, forget about him, despite how much truth he might have brought into the world.
Which race did we exterminate? the Amer.Indians? Which nation? Now in the beginning the smaller tribes were wiped out but that was more due to disease than purpose and it was not just the US Govt. doing it, They sort of did fight amongst themselves too. And we enslaved an entire race??? Dude, have you seen Africa? 
:-"
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Freedom is the ability to tell the truth (or lie as long as it causes no physical harm) without interference except to agree or disagree. If you’re the only one on the board, right or wrong, you’re still free. Others are free to ban you from their boards simply for being obnoxious. Censorship is purely a government function.