Free will...?

[Uccisore]

TAE:

How many idiot teenagers do you know who believe what they believe because it’s cool or controversial?

Someone who believed in free will, like me, could say you are equivocating on the word ‘because’ here. Yes, a teenager makes the choice to drift away from Christianity, and their decision was based in part on a desire to be cool or controversial. Whether or not this is the same ‘because’ as ‘the rock fell because I dropped it’ is the very thing being discussed.

[jeffl]

@détrop

Here is a good read. Short and sweet:

http://www.thinedge.org/members/mark/ubermark/freewill.htm

Yes; good read, short and sweet.

@"[url

http://www.thinedge.org/members/mark/ubermark/freewill.htm[/url]“]Conglomerate” is almost a defining characteristic of this self which is more than the self I know. It is (I am) not from any god, nor some eternal spark held in a physical container. A body came to be and within it grew this spark, somewhere (in Nietzsche’s words) “between plant and ghost”. It passes through the world and encounters things. Some of them it internalizes. Those already internalized determine what next shall be passed by and what shall be incorporated. It grows somewhat like an organism, but more like a city: with additions and detours created which often enough refuse to be interpreted in terms of any grand scheme. And this mess am I. But within this piecemeal self, distinctions can be made which make some things more central than others, which lay a stronger claim to call some pieces mine.

There are parts of my self which appear to be adopted whole and maintained intact from my parents, from Nietzsche, from some random event which crystallized a concept, from sources of which I am not aware. There are other parts which have undoubtedly been processed thoroughly after their arrival. Parts made of innumerable influences, parts which can be said to have my “flavor”, which share some essential characteristics and moods with other “heavily processed” items. I cannot say that anything is purely mine, that any part of myself does not owe it’s existence to something outside, but I can distinguish that which is realtively adopted from that which has been made relatively me. This is an important realization. Just as one can dismiss any expectations that truth be absolute, one can dismiss the expectation that the self be independent. Once that is done, it is quite sensible to speak of parts of the self within which one has exerted one’s will, which one has (relatively speaking) created.

You choose what to worship; this is your relative freedom of will. This is agreed, and this is enough.

If you choose to reject a movement toward an ideal; an ideal that might not exist in the here and now as something you can arrive at but, still exist in the fulness of Being as something you can move toward; is that not a free choice? look; biology is a rock falling and the sun is a wind that blows the rock back up; chlorophyl is one of the sails, reasoned consideration another. Consciousness can stop the rock from falling and, the wind just keeps blowing; that’s the inevidability of trancendance for those who try. You just have to try.

[Iacchus]

@TheAngryElvis

The power of associations between a proposition and a previous experience is incredible - this is how I believe free will to be illusory. How many people on this forum hold their views due to the associations they subconsciously carry with them?

Yes, you are free to jump off the edge of a cliff if you like. However, you are also free to be restricted to a wheel chair for the rest of your life. And, while we may ask how restrictiveness applies to free will, the restrictions don’t begin to apply until after we’ve made the choice and, lose a piece of our “functionality.” So, the choice here it would seem, would be not to do stupid things.

[fuse]

Does anyone here believe that I could control everyone else on the planet?

yes, no?

[scythekain]

sometimes it’s better to let sages speak for us.

@Chesterton

Thus he has always
believed that there was such a thing as fate, but such a thing
as free will also.

Why can’t the two co-exist?

[fuse]

They cannot coexist.

Fate=no matter what I do the end result will be the same (the means will always find the same end)

Free Will=I have the will to control where I end up, and who I am (the means to any end are unique and controlable by each individual)

I have a feeling it has to be one or the other.

But what about the question I asked in my last post…

Then I promise I will let you guys move on to bigger and better things

[scythekain]

@fuse

They cannot coexist.

Fate=no matter what I do the end result will be the same (the means will always find the same end)

Free Will=I have the will to control where I end up, and who I am (the means to any end are unique and controlable by each individual)

I have a feeling it has to be one or the other.

But what about the question I asked in my last post…

Then I promise I will let you guys move on to bigger and better things

they can co-exist, you have the free will to change your fate.

@fuse

Does anyone here believe that I could control everyone else on the planet?

if you have enough might, you can control anyone.

[fuse]

they can co-exist, you have the free will to change your fate.

then it’s not really fate, is it? I thought fate was immutable

if you have enough might, you can control anyone.

hrmm…yeah that’s exactly what I was going to try to prove…so you agree then, that I could?

[scythekain]

@fuse

they can co-exist, you have the free will to change your fate.

then it’s not really fate, is it? I thought fate was immutable

fate is immutable unless you change your behaviour. As a philosopher don’t get too caught up in “mere existence”. Duality is a part of humanity. You can have one foot in heaven, while having the other firmly planted on earth. You can be controlled by fate, while at the same time controlling your fate.

if you have enough might, you can control anyone.

hrmm…yeah that’s exactly what I was going to try to prove…so you agree then, that I could?

That you could? No. You are not mighty enough.

[fuse]

That you could? No. You are not mighty enough.

What if I accumulated enough of the world’s weapons of mass destruction and used them? I could kill everyone. Would that not be controling them?
And you don’t think I have the “might” to do this?

fate is immutable unless you change your behaviour. As a philosopher don’t get too caught up in “mere existence”. Duality is a part of humanity. You can have one foot in heaven, while having the other firmly planted on earth. You can be controlled by fate, while at the same time controlling your fate.

duality cannot be proven, and how can you change the absoluteness of fate? it doesn’t make sense that fate is whatever you want it to be, I thought the point of fate/destiny is that you cannot change it…?

[scythekain]

@fuse

That you could? No. You are not mighty enough.

What if I accumulated enough of the world’s weapons of mass destruction and used them? I could kill everyone. Would that not be controling them?
And you don’t think I have the “might” to do this?

if you killed everyone you wouldn’t be controlling them, you’d be killing them. And no you don’t have the might to do that. The first bomb you dropped, would get the hezbollah kicked out of you.

duality cannot be proven

sure it can. It’s light and dark right now on earth. It’s day and night. Good and evil.

and how can you change the absoluteness of fate?

What is fate, but a series of choices that lead to some predetermined conclusion? If you jump off a bridge without a parachute, you’re gonna die. You can choose NOT to jump off the bridge, or do so with a parachute.

Each choice has a consequence, good or bad.

it doesn’t make sense that fate is whatever you want it to be, I thought the point of fate/destiny is that you cannot change it…?

think of it this way… we know that Action A + Time/place B = Situation C. If you change A or B, C changes.

[fuse]

think of it this way… we know that Action A + Time/place B = Situation C. If you change A or B, C changes.

yes, your logic is correct, but by definition fate is an unchangeable “C”

therefore the values of A and B do not matter, they will equal C because they were designed to

I don’t know if we’re going to be able to agree on this one…

sure it can. It’s light and dark right now on earth. It’s day and night. Good and evil.

I thought that by “duality” you were referring to the theoryof dualism–that mind and body are seperate, just as heaven and earth are seperate, in fact if anything it’s been proven that the mind is created from the same matter as the body, monism