what is freedom in a society to a determinist?
i think its funny when the american ideal is ultimate freedom but determinists acknowledge the fact that theyre completely at the whim to some extent everything else. so how do you achieve a quality of life (im attributing that quality to freedom… most people do) via freedom as a determinist? is it the same way a determinist would justify living?
Don’t all determinists end up alcoholics?
freedom in the way that people use it doesnt actually exist,actual freedom is measured by the number of your abilitys also the amount of power and choices you have.
I agree with Oni; politically, freedom is basically authority over oneself–and, by extension, the forces that apply to oneself.
The “justify living” question is a lot more abstract I think, not really social, but perhaps living is its own justification.
so freedom in the sense that i really have a physical control over myself cant exist but freedom as in never having to live in a cage can exist.
but when people spout how america is land of the free it creates a society based around individualistic notions which ends up creating beliefs that attempt to prop up support for free will. i think thats whats confusing me. i dont know why people still think theyre free or why they believe they should take any pride in themselves in their way of life in their “unique” qualities or any of that other bullshit that americans tend to glorify.
theres is no distinction between the two types of freedom to most people. physical freedom such that youre physically able to consider floating down multiple paths and the fact that youre physically unable to choose which path you float down doesnt divided when you say youre living a free life. i dont know i feel there are a lot of contradictions in the way we live and the way we think. that being one of them.
And that’s why I jokingly asked, "Don’t all determinists end up alcoholics?’
It seems to me that the only conclusion you can reach if you believe in determinism is that nothing matters. Things will work out how they were determined they should at the moment of the Big Bang. Why take pride in anything, its not your doing. Why try, why care? Why live every day of your life as though trying and caring mattered when you know they don’t? Why turn your life into a lie? Why trap yourself into circular reasoning that still leaves your life devoid of mening?
For me, determinism is life denying.
I see freedom as an expression relative to perception, for some that is freedom from constraint, others it is control of ones destiny, others it is the power to act, To myself freedom is simply an expression.
As for determinasts. Since they allready beleive that all acts are allready set in play, than regardless of their views on freedom it will make no real diffrince so why be concerned with it.
Peace
I don’t think hard-determinism stifles motivation or purpose. I mean, what is “meaning” anyway? Isn’t it a construct of human thinking? It doesn’t have to reflect some permanent paradigm, be a perfect ideal, or be decided upon by a totally isolated entity, it just has to mean something to a person. And a person doesn’t have to be something that is totally free, graceful, or righteous, they just have to be.
well you can take pride in the fact that you belong to an intricate network of amazing creativity. i think determinism still leaves social beliefs wide open and makes it more easier to accept them. if everything you do is related to someone else to some degree then you can appreciate their company more their abilities more. you draw your self worth through other people. not historical people that have the as much an effect on your life as an object in space millions of miles away but people that are around you.
youre determined to care… you can solve that one just by saying that. we were created with needs and wants. i dont know why… ever try not to eat? youre at the mercy of your stomach and asshole as much as you are at the mercy of your brain. to answer your question… pain. pain motivates. determinism fits very neatly into the literal world. its not an abstract philosophy its exactly what we are. its just hard to brush up certain topics to make them more obvious for people to see.
because determinism isnt apathy.
Too sad, but I suppose true. Though it couldnt hurt to adopt a few traits from apithy rather than obsess over the uncontrolable.
I’m… not sure…should I feel… insulted? 
I found it funny. 
It is for some. 
Edited: because I didn’t like the tone. 
It couldn’t help either by your thinking, since it’s already assured to happen. Meaning doesn’t come from predictability or metaphysical freedom.
you are determined to behave as if you were free.
-Imp
exactly…
determinism really is a waste of time. im just stuck on the idea of freedom and western ideologies. i think determinism sits better with eastern thought. i dont know… freedom is a bizarre concept especially to live and die for… but all ideas are bizarre to live and die for as far as im concerned.
self interest is an idea
-Imp
No, ignoring determinism is a waste of time. Determinism is the basis for science and generally every habitual thing we do.
yea but in reality it plays a very small role in how you act. and science like socializing is totally dependent on how the surrounding influences define the focus point. another example of how determinism shouldnt be related to western thoughts.