Freewill, what is it?

  1. What version of free will do you most ascribe truth to?
  • 1)Compatibilism
    1. Incompatibilism
    1. Libertarian free will
    1. Other:
    1. None of the above
    1. Undecided
    1. Spam
  • :sunglasses: I am a free will nihilist, there is no definition and the question is meaningless etc, etc…
    1. I am MIGHTY!!!111111111obneeone213709w70u0ds
0 voters

Define free will.

I’ll take a stab from my perspective:

  1. The ability to realise multiple outcomes for any action, and not be prohibited by constraints other than your own.
  2. The ability to theoretically travel back in time and lead a completely different life according to which choices you make.

In other words my definition is something like the libertarian free will position, strictly non compatibilist, but not incompatabilist in that such a term denotes I even recognise that freedom and determinism can co exist or are even a necessary consideration determinist or not of what it means to be free at all.

Ok so who agrees with my definition and who disagrees?

Be gentle with me this is my first ever thread.

:blush:

I don’t quite follow… It’s been defined in several different ways already. Which definition of ‘free will’ are you using when you challenge us to define it?

Do you want a new definition?

How can we disagree with your definition? Giving the definition is simply stating the terms of debate.

It seems as though you are assuming that there’s something there, and what we need to do is work out how best to describe it. The problem is, the different descriptions (say, compatibilist and incompatibilist) actually describe different concepts. It’s not that compatibilism is a more accurate picture of free will; it defines “free will” as something other than what incompatibilism does.

“Free-Will” is a grassroots movement consisting of family and friends who are dedicated to their cause of rallying for the release from prison of Will Smith, who they believe was wrongly convicted of drug trafficking…

Anyway, personally i do not believe that i could have constructed any other joke than that one… If time rewinded without me realizing it, what would promt me to do things differently?

Will you postulate some element of randomness in the universe?

Determinism for us is unusable and unverifiable, so whatever it is that we do have (choice) cannot be scrutinized to the point of meaninglessness.

Free will is spam!
I like that option.

Free will, whether it is epistemically demonstrated to be an illusion, or whether we hold it for an empirical fact, is actually synonymous with power. What does the word power mean, if not an autonomous potential? It defines individuality. Whether or not power and individuality is deconstructed, theoretically, into biological and atavistic drives, or whether it is taken at face value determines how free will it is perceived, and by extension how much use the concept is to the individual.

The anti-freewill logician might at one point confront the idea that logic is itself deterministic, so no concept can be understood by it in a non-deterministic way. Free will is best understood as simply power. I mean it can only be experienced as such. Determinism can best be experienced as a lack of power, being forced to cooperate with ‘‘reality’’ of which one feels excluded except by the bonds of pain and fear.

No no no thay isn’t what I wanted to say. Free will is synonymous to will, I wanted to say, not to power. It is felt in power.
I like to see a difference between a will and a drive.

we don;t know where a “will” comes from, we can explain away “drives”.

An idea against which to compare our relative oppression.

The ‘will’ often seems a slave to even itself. Within an act of the ‘will’ is a process of command (or leadership) and obedience.

The question is, how do you define “freedom” of the will? I think your initial definitions are far too broad and arguably not even relative to the state of one’s will.

I would say one of the following is a bit more accurate:

  1. The ‘will’ is indulged with impunity – no control of, or desire to control, the ‘will’.
  2. The ability to control one’s indulgence of ‘will’ – complete control over the ‘will’.
  3. Having no ‘will’ – acting without influence of basic, instinctual drive(s).

AKA language/dialectic.

To me, this seems like saying we “know” where heat comes from, but we don’t “know” the origin of the sun. In such a case, the two are synonymous if one is defined by use of the other. That is not to say that one defines the other completely, but is a defining component none-the-less. Likewise, the sun may not be just “heat”, but I’m not sure I’ve ever seen one mentioned without the other. This isn’t because the two examples are two separate entities that happen to coexist in synergy – it boils down to a simple use of language to narrow or broaden the scope of consideration. Either way, there is no one without the other.

Ok if there are several definitions what are they and which one do you think is more likely to be a definition of what it means to be free.

Heat is a vibrational mode observed in materials. The sun is hot, but it is not heat.

That defines will what about free and hence free will?

ie

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will# … patibilism

If will comes from anything but a desire influenced by ourselves and in and of our own concerns then it is not free though. If I was going to do something regardless of my perceived choices, then it is fated and predetermined. If I was always going to chose the red pill then choosing the blue pill is not a choice any more than choosing the red pill was, it was merely destiny, bound to happen causally following a cause to an effect.

Will is the impulse to act or the impulse under which one acts its active part being the choice or act itself, the will being the thought or impulse that drives the action, before that the mind is willing the impulse is from the mind, the means to act from the choice to act on impulses from the mind, the choice is that which we perceive as the result of the impulse and the end is an action. Free will is I think therefore the impulse to act unimpeded by constraints except your own and thus an act is freely willed only if it was your choice and not determined by material or preset conditions, ie free will is a probability not a cause and effect or cause follows effect always; ie we can chose to live how we will if we are free from any covert or non covert oppression so it follows necessarily that determinism and free will are incompatible.

Therefore without the ability to live your life in a multiple realisable system, it is not free any more than walking through a tunnel from one end to the other with no choices of direction is an example of choosing to move to the end of the tunnel, you had to you had no choice. If you could chose to stop walking and back out of the tunnel then you would have made a choice otherwise it was just a preset outcome following from the causal action of walking down a tunnel. The outcome was both predetermined and fated, unless you had any sort of choice about getting to the end of a tunnel, if the end result is always you walking to the end of the tunnel then what choice is that unless you could have stopped walking and not gone to the end of the tunnel if you had chosen to? If it had to happen like that and you had no control, it is determined and we have no degree of freedom.

Will. n.

a. The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action: championed freedom of will against a doctrine of predetermination.
b. The act of exercising the will.
2.
a. Diligent purposefulness; determination: an athlete with the will to win.
b. Self-control; self-discipline: lacked the will to overcome the addiction.
3. A desire, purpose, or determination, especially of one in authority: It is the sovereign’s will that the prisoner be spared.
4. Deliberate intention or wish: Let it be known that I took this course of action against my will.
5. Free discretion; inclination or pleasure: wandered about, guided only by will.
6. Bearing or attitude toward others; disposition: full of good will.
7.
a. A legal declaration of how a person wishes his or her possessions to be disposed of after death.
b. A legally executed document containing this declaration.

Thanks man…I think.

Quick tip - try reading the content of the statements you choose to debate first. Your points will be far less repetitive, and generally more respectable when you reply.

Also, the dictionary is a supposed book of finite “absolutes”, or concrete definitions. We rarely speak in absolutes 'round these parts. Unless Jesus himself told you that the dictionary is “A-OK”, I wouldn’t make a habit of using it to support all of your arguments. Philosophy has a way of expounding upon generally accepted definitions.

Disagreeing with the dictionary definition merely means in your opinion it is invalid and your view of what will means is therefore equally as invalid as the dictionary definition, which is a rather circular argument.

Define will then. That is after all the point. Then define free, hence what is your idea of the term free will in the OP.

So what if its already been discussed it hasn’t been answered so its still valid to ask questions.

What is free will and do we have it, that is the question?

If you can’t even bring yourself to decide what free will is or vote in the poll that’s up to you. It’s a pretty redundant argument in and of itself, so you could always say nihilism.

Spam is kind of a joke option after all spam is unsolicited by definition of what spam is, and by volition of me asking a question then it cannot be spam as it is solicited; even if you don’t care for the common usage of the word you can’t say something is spam without redefining the word spam and then you end up disappearing up your own metaphysical ass.

I wouldn’t call the definitions - including mine - “invalid” so much as I would “inadequate”. That goes for every definition postulated thus far. Some seem more accurate than others, but concrete “absolutes” exist only in theory. That is why these arguments become circular and often should be circular. We are not weeding through possibilities to finally discover pure, unadulterated “truth”. We are theorizing, and comparing said theories to find that which seems most accurate at the moment. We are trying to explain something that we do not understand, so we search for the best possible descriptors to interpret a concept. In other words, we are grasping in the dark at something that seems to make sense. If the argument were not circular, our theories would not evolve. That evolution, in my opinion, is the closest we will get to “truth”.

…see now, this is what I’m talking about. I see attempts at those very definitions in the OP, a few in my previous posts, and probably a few more ‘round-a-bouts’ inbetween. Read the thread dude; it really helps the debate move along smoothly.

Indeed. However, if the questions have already been asked - in this very thread - perhaps it’s time to move on. That is unless you really enjoy asking redundant questions that you could find “valid” answers to if you take the time to read the other posts, in which case I’m sorry to rain on thine proverbial parade.

That is a question, yes. One gold star.

Again, I don’t have a concrete answer because I don’t think one exists. Questions like this boil down to a matter of belief.

The whole point of my initial response was to narrow the focus down a bit. That is to say, is “free will” a freedom of the will, or freedom from the will? I’m sure both stances could be argued with some degree of validity. Which would you say?

[NOTE: Apologies for the sarcasm. I’m not trying to be a dick, it just pours out sometimes like I am a veritable fountain of bullshit. However, I do think you would have found some “valid” responses to your queries had you taken the time to read the other posts.]

Point is, as stated before, it’s already been defined in several ways. You’re starting a thread, so you get to talk about which kind of free will you like.

Compatibilist free will unquestionably exists, it’s simply a description of a state. There’s no discussion to be had.

Incompatibilist free will requires further definition. If you step outside causality, there’s no way of tying your choice of actions to a “you”. If you step outside determinism, your freedom becomes a slavery to random events.

What’s it useful for? Blame and praise. These are social activities, with a psychological basis. Arising from a psychological basis, you could argue. We want to justify these things, but to whom?

Hiccup.

I’m asking you to explain your views not asking you to disassemble mine per se. If you don’t or can’t have a view because you think the question is incomplete or unanswerable then you are a sort of free will nihilist, then you should say that. But just saying there are several definitions and not answering what you think is most likely to meet the criteria in a sense of truthiness by avoiding the question is sophistry, you either have a view or an opinion or a belief which you are capable of justifying at least to yourself or you do not.

If you don’t want to answer the question that’s fine that’s your choice, if you can’t also fine. The question hasn’t changed though what do you think free will means and if so do you think we have it, not do you know we have it, what is your opinion of the debate. If you think that by answering what you believe or would like to think is the truth or the reality sounds stupid or ridiculous then that’s fine. If you think your beliefs are foolish then join the club most are. I have stated what I think would actually be free will, whether it exists is entirely a philosophical matter. But I have yet to see any compelling argument that shows determinism = free or will so I therefore hold to my belief that libertarian free will is the only belief that makes any sense logically.

This thread is not about philosophically dense esotericism, it’s about your ability to think for yourself without having to look to a text book to tell you what to think. Something I think you’ll agree is very important in this or any subject at any level beyond the school system. I do find it mildy ironic that you tell me there are several definitions of free will, but when I show a definition of will at least, neither free nor free will you tell me off. But meh. :stuck_out_tongue:

/thread

Also please note I was well aware threads on this already existed I wasn’t asking if you think free will exists though, only what you think it is or would be likely to be if it were true, or false, or unanswerable. Which I think you’ll agree is a valid distinction. You may believe we have no free will or that we do, but those beliefs are based on an interpretation of the issues that is yours not any others. It is your own.

Good. I just did. :slight_smile:

I’m not avoiding the question. I’ll try one more time.

You ask what free will is and whether we believe in it.
We can’t answer whether we believe in it until we define it.
There already exist definitions. These definitions describe different things under the name of “free will”.
Your question as to what “free will” is, implies that there is one and only one thing called “free will” that needs definition. There is not, there are different things that go by the name “free will”.
So to answer your question, I need to know which thing it is you’re asking about. Or, as above, I can address it for a range of things.

By way of comparison: Who is James, and do you like him?
Depends on which “James” you mean. I like some people called James and dislike others.

I hope you understand, I don’t think I can explain it any more clearly I’m afraid. Compatibilist free will is not the same thing as incompatibilist free will. It is not a different flavour of free will, it is as different as “emancipation” and “dogs”. One describes a situation, the other asserts existence. It’s grammatically different.

What free will means depends on who’s saying it, in what context, and why. I don’t know what you mean by it in this question, because you won’t tell me the context.

As I said before, if you mean compatibilist free will I believe in compatibilist free will, because it doesn’t make sense not to believe in it - it’s a description. It means that description. Assuming no-one else is pressuring you, you can’t not have it. But this is trivial.

To be pedantic: Determinism=free will can still make sense logically without a compelling argument for; only a compelling argument against would logically rule it out.

Do you mean physical or non-physical libertarianism (from your link)? If the former, is your free will a result of randomness in molecular interactions (and hence not under your control); if the latter, do you believe that your mind somehow overrides causality and that your choices are not the result of experiential preferences? Which of these two makes sense logically?

Logically speaking, why do you assume that “free will” (as libertarian free will proponents) exists? Is it because you experience the feeling of having made a choice? It seems also logically possible that your conscious mind merely serves to justify your subconscious (determinate) decisions post hoc.

I agree with what Stat and Hume are saying but I’ll throw into the ring that the idea of Free Will is a post-Christian hangover. There was this notion of an omnipotent, omniscient being which didn’t jive with the theological fact that this being still judged us. The whole Predestination thing. Various conceptions of free will were introduced to solve this problem. Eventually, philosophy moved away from God but the notion of free will remained as a hangover and other elements were used as a God-substitute (like nature, causality, and so on).

If we look at pre-Christian or non-Christian notions of fate we see a slightly different picture. It is a force that compels and drives us but at the same time its actions can only be seen in retrospect. So, fate is basically the present interacting with previous events that gave rise to the now. You’ll note that it only becomes immobile when we fight against it. Achilles was given a choice regarding his fate. In trying to avoid his own death, Laius sealed his fate. The Chinese concept of fate is similar. We should study our fate not because it is inevitable but because that is where our success lies. You can marry someone with whom you are astrologically incompatible, but such a union will be unhappy and unsuccessful.

Unless one is Christian, to bind one’s self to the notion of free will conceived in a Christian environment can’t help but lead to confusion and contradiction.