I agree with kriswest, siblings should not be torn apart through the education system. Case closed, moving on.
Slightly off topic … but seriously, how many people here actually ‘learnt’ during their ‘learning time’/classes ? Personally I was always quiet kid who never made trouble and generally did his homework etc… but seriously I sat in a class for 5 hours a day for like 12 years bored out of my mind. Then thankfully when I got to university most of my subjects did not grade you down if you did not attend, so I very rarely did. For me 95% of my learning was on my own with the book/computer figuring out how things worked…sitting through a lecture/class where the class had to go at the pace of the slowest student was just torture, and I certainly don’t consider myself a genius.
And on the boy/girl thing again… there are already all boy / all girl schools right ? So there is already an option for that if the parents wish… so you just want to force separation by sex upon everyone and not have an option ?
My personal experience says that working with co-ed classes can be just as successful. Its true that in all the groups of teenagers I’ve taught, there are effects of boys and girls working together (girls being shy to talk to boys, boys showing off to girls etc). However, I don’t think it often really affects their learning. Actually, there are positive effects too: a classroom full of boys can be a handful of people desperate to assert their machoism, but sometimes the presence of girls calms them down a bit.
There are a few cases of teenage girls who are simply so shy in front of boys that being in a classroom with them prevents them from speaking at all. This is possibly the worst situation, but then, there are also boys who get very shy talking in front of too many other boys, and find the presence of girls in some way comforting (these are the non-macho boys, who generally struggle to get along with a lot of the other boys and feel intimidated by them). For those boys, single sex classrooms are a nightmare.
My suspicion, from this experience, would be that single sex schooling offers no net benefit for boys (perhaps a net loss) and only a marginal befit for girls in educational terms.
For me, though, this isn’t about the academic merits, its about positive and negative stereotypes and whether schools should be reenforcing negative stereotypes or not. Separating sexes reinforces the message that boys are boys, girls are girls and the two are distinct and different types of people. I think this is both old fashioned and, ultimately, oppressive.
As a gay teenager who never came out in school, but who felt more comfortable around girls than boys, an all-male classroom would have been very intimidating for me and would have had a very negative impact on my social and academic development. I think the openness of my school was key to my personal development: I was a boy who mainly hung around with girls, and no one at my school really saw that at abnormal. I think if the school had separated boys and girls in class time, then I would have felt far more ‘stigmatized’ - as it would have seemed like the school was saying that boy/girl separation was a norm.
Aside from the practical note that most teenagers’ sexualities are still developing and growing, and may change several times, I find the notion that you would cart openly queer children off to different institutions from all the non-queer children outwardly offensive. Queer teenagers, I feel, are stigamtised enough already - sending them to different classes / schools is a way of stamping them as officially ‘different’ people, which in teenager terms translates to ‘abnormal’. Because of this, I consider any suggestion that queer people should not be allowed to study with heterosexuals to be fundamentally homophobic in nature (however it is justified), and believe it would result in the reinforcing of and spreading of homophobia. I feel it is a suggestion that most liberally minded intelligent people would instantly reject on this basis.
If this is the only solution for gay children as regards single sex schools, then I have to argue that the whole concept of single sex schools itself is inevitably intolerant of queerness, and that this is a crippling weakness in the system. For me, a school system with inbuilt prejudices that discriminates against some of its children because of there sexual orientation (or racial or social backround, etc) is inherently wrong, whether or not it produces better academic results.
There is no way to remove complex social dynamics and peer pressure from high school education. It is just a part of growing up, and they parts of any teenager’s lives (whether co-ed or otherwise).
Yes, and even if you could, I don’t think it would be very helpful. It seems like avoiding the problem to me, instead of dealing with it better.
Once again, think. Are they torn apart by gender separation in classrooms any more than they are by normal classroom separation?
Then we may have to simply agree to disagree based on experience. To quote my mother in reference to a class she teaches of all boys “To bring a girl into the classroom would be chaos…[the boys] are, at this age, always thinking about sex.” This isn’t to say that sex is the only thing all boys ever think about, but that at this stage in development it is by no means a stranger to their thoughts. For the record, my mother’s class is unisex by coincidence, not design.
This is the opposite of what I am concerned with. I am looking at every class being a lesson in the espionage of discretely conversing or starring at that boy/girl near you, lost in fantasy, rather than focusing on school work.
I wholeheartedly agree with you in these two paragraphs. In fact, I raised that very issue in my first post. The case of the homosexual is the most damning for gender separation.
Still, I can’t help but wonder if limiting the separation to the classroom rather than the school itself could not potentially present a solution, especially if a system was implemented only for those students whose preoccupation with frothing hormones presents them with a noticeable distraction from studies.
Yeah, that’s not how it works.
There’s so few gays and lesbians, why should we sacrifice the educational interests of the majority for the educational interests of a minority? I agree with Aletheia, school should primarily be about education, the opportunity to associate with the opposite sex would present itself at recess and lunch. I don’t want to stray too far from the OP, but in the spirit of putting education 1st, should we also have school uniforms or dress codes? Black and white seems to dull the senses… but also creativity and imagination.
Yes, we can discuss dress codes here. We have established the truth that gender separation in the classroom, and not anywhere else, is productive of a better learning environment. The issue of homosexual children is an outlying problem, in all likelihood representing the essential imperfection of the system - however, as we have established, this new arrangement is far superior to total gender mixing, so we may move forward with this arrangement regardless that there exist some outlying parameters, and be confident that at a future point a resolution addressing these imperfections will be found.
Moving on to dress codes. Black and white seems to dull creativity and enforce a more sterile conformity mindset. I floated the idea of a small selection of available uniform designs, perhaps 3-4, that students might choose from - but even here we run into the problem of cliche-formation, ingroup-outgroup, and fashion all infringing upon learning. Superficial sociability concerns may be wholly appropriate outside the classroom, but inside they are anathema to cultivating genuine drive and possibility for education. I am decided that a single uniform must be enforced among all students. However this uniform should be something that inspires pride and awe in the institution, inspires creativity and aspiration to learn and achieve. It should not be seen as a “prison garment” in any sense, not restrictive, but liberating. I am not a clothing designer, but with these guidelines in mind we can imagine a basic, relatively simply and undistracting uniform that contains come color schemes and basic design intended to achieve the effect of uplift of spirit, increase in self-pride, creativity and being participatory in something grander than oneself.
We should not impede student’s need to express themselves and be unique - this dress code is not such an impediment but rather an enabling of this freedom of expression. We channel and redirect this psychological need for identity expression into the realm of ideas, of discussion and of coursework. Thus the student is forced to outlet his need to be a unique individual identity and to distinguish himself into the more productive field of intellect, thought and work, rather than the superficial field of dress and fashion statements.
That’s a good idea, just because we have a school uniform, doesn’t mean it has to be dull, it can be dynamic and inspiring.
In addition, I think schools should provide healthy food for students, although I stll think parents should have the option to pack their own childs lunches, as we don’t want to give the state a monopoly over our childrens lives… or do we?, perhaps we do if they do a good job. They should remove candy bars, chips and pop, and serve fresh, organic fruits, vegetables, fish, eggs and meat. I would strongly emphasise the aforementioned foods over refined and processed foods especially, and over wheat and dairy. A healthy body will promote a healthy mind. How can we expect children to learn when they’re overstimulated by refined sugar and flour, caffine and choco. I expect cases of learning disorders and attention deficit disorder to dramatically drop within the first month or even week. I wouldn’t completely remove refined sugar and flour from their diet, but I would keep it to a minimum (once/twice a week),and when the school does serve deserts, they should be of the highest quality, no artificial ingredients.
Agreed on all points. Education centers should provide good nutrition to students as a matter of course, since not all students have access to this already through their family system. Parents should be relieved of the burden of transporting, providing food, providing classroom materials, as much as possible. Of course if a parents would like to do these things and is able to meet a basic standard for them, I see no reason to forbid that, at least at this time.
Separating children by subject specialization and focus seems more reasonable than gender. At least students specializing in a particular science makes sense. But, I don’t think math classes ought to exclude girls for any particular reason. There can remain 1 or 2 girls in a math class, just like 1 or 2 boys in a home econ class. Why do genders break apart by specialization in education though?
Besides that, I mainly just wanted to agree with kriswest that siblings shouldn’t be taken to separate schools. And if siblings are in the same grade or year, then I don’t see the point to separate them by gender either. I would think just separating gender for a course like…sex education, would make more sense. But in classes like english or latin, why not have girls and boys together?
I also agree with the school uniform thing, not an entire school uniform, but maybe just vests which cover the chest area. That way students can still wear whatever clothes they want, other than the vest, some freedom with some restriction.
I don’t wish to impede progress or anything here, but since we have broached the subject of uniforms/dress code, I think there is more at stake than simply a preoccupation with the fashion industry. While I don’t feel our students should be walking around in mini-skirts, sagging pants, et cetera, I do feel how one presents oneself is an important part of self-expression. The way someone dresses has psychological significance. I have to support a reasonable dress code in favor of a uniform.
This is admittedly brief, but I am cautious. If we’re going to move on to the broader subject of the educational system in general, I will have substantially more to say, as it is one of my primary concerns and I’m not entirely sure my support of classroom gender division would remain unless we are more or less staying true to current mass education systems. On this topic, I feel a need to reevaluate the social structure at large, and in order to discuss this, I think it would be important for all parties concerned to have Plato’s Republic, Skinner’s Walden Two, Chernyshevsky’s What is to be Done? and numerous case studies handy. Such a discussion would likely span months…
Where are you getting this? Where exactly does gender specific classroom specify gender specific subject? I am not saying girls take one class, boys take another, but that they don’t take the same class in the same room at the same point in space-time.
No one is still supporting separate schools…
It would be helpful if you read the progression in my posts, the most recent stance was:
“Still, I can’t help but wonder if limiting the separation to the classroom rather than the school itself could not potentially present a solution, especially if a system was implemented only for those students whose preoccupation with frothing hormones presents them with a noticeable distraction from studies.”
Yes there are other bonds and no I do not see only children as casualty. I would have to look at my own son then as such. He is quite a normal adult just as you are. Its not being in the same classes its about experiencing the same thing, time is not relevent. One teacher will often teach an entire families of kids in many of the small school districts. My kid never had a sib mentor him about whats what and share such things with. So he does not know about it. It does not affect him. Another point that I may have missed in this discussion. If genders are seperated then so must the teachers be gender seperated. Males teaching boys and females teachig girls, You don’t see the problems with that? Yep problems , legal ones.
I don’t see the problem with that?
I was not addressing you.
I think you are missing something here. Why couldn’t one teacher teach, for instance, an entire family? Look, you’re missing a big point here. Chances are, you could have biological twins, which is rare, and they wouldn’t be in the same classes. Also, biological twins (like the issue you raised earlier) wouldn’t be an issue as they tend to be the same sex. I have to wonder if you’re actually reading what I’m writing or just walking in here on high because you don’t like the topic’s title. Half of what you are addressing, if not more, is a non-issue or is simply not reading/understanding my posts. I’m here to pose some benefits and deficits of the topic. I would appreciate it if you would spend a little more time analyzing what I’m writing rather than taking a disagreement at face value.
To clarify for at least the third time:
“Still, I can’t help but wonder if limiting the separation to the classroom rather than the school itself could not potentially present a solution, especially if a system was implemented only for those students whose preoccupation with frothing hormones presents them with a noticeable distraction from studies.”
Why must the teachers be? Even in Catholic schools this is not the case. I tend to believe a teacher is generally under control of themselves. I don’t see where legal problems result. Care to develop that point?
About 5-6% of adults identify as being homosexual, which in a school of 2000 kids, means about 100-120 children, which is really not that insignificant a number. Do you not feel that an inherently discriminatory education system that produces marginally better educational results would be unfair?
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘established’. You haven’t actually provided any evidence whatsoever, you’ve just restated the same completely un-evidenced assertion several times.
Although there are thousands of reports and surveys you could cite, it still stands that the most comprehensive review of the literature - a review for the U.S. department of Education: www2.ed.gov/rschstat/eval/other/ … le-sex.pdf which reviewed thousands of pieces of research on the subject and pooled the results of the ones which were found to be scientific - found that “roughly a third of all studies reported findings favoring SS schools (for concurrent academic accomplishments) , with the remainder of the studies split between null and mixed results”, but also that “As opposed to concurrent indicators of academic achievement, any positive effects of SS schooling on longer-term indicators of academic achievement are not readily apparent. No differences were found for postsecondary test scores, college graduation rates, or graduate school attendance rates”. This does not seem to lend a great deal of support to ss schooling, as clearly, the majority of surveys found there was no difference in Academic performance.