Do you think those characteristics are set in stone at birth and cannot be changed, and why?
If not, do you think they SHOULD be or SHOULDN’T be changed, and who has the right to determine that and why? Do you think that a person’s perception of themselves matters in deciding whether to change or not?
Isn’t it interesting and somewhat ironic that it’s usually the people who tend to lean to a dualistic view of mind and body that condemn the people who want to change their physical outlook because it doesn’t match how they feel, with the idea they have in mind? Why should it come as a surprise to them that the mind and body are not in a perfect unity and separate from each other?
My argument against the people who think such characteristics cannot be changed and are set in stone is the following 2 pictures which I think I posted somewhere here already:
Female at birth:
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Male at birth:
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I think we can all agree that the female at birth is more masculine than a male at birth, who is in turn more feminine - which is inconsistent with the position that gender is set in stone at birth and invalidates it while supporting the position that gender can be altered.
The more interesting responses should be the ones to the second question - SHOULD it be done. I see no reason why not if the person feels uncomfortable with the gender they are assigned with at birth.
The current orthodoxy is that gender is a fluid thing that is put upon us by society,
UNLESS you’re a man who wishes he was a woman, and then that wish is somehow an ingrained, immutable part of you that can only be fixed by surgery.
So I don’t know what you’re on about. The people arguing that gender is set at birth are the people who say that bodies need to be changed sometimes to come into alignment with this immutable gender thing. You are painting transgender issues as though the argument is “People should just change their gender if they feel like it because it’s changable and no big deal”. Nobody is making that argument yet- the argument is that gender is a super big deal, and if your body doesn’t match the one you ‘really and truly are’, some Swede needs to chop your dick off to fix you. If this was about people maiming themselves merely because they felt like it, most of the people who oppose it now wouldn’t oppose it I don’t think. Of course, we wouldn’t call people by their chosen pronoun, but it wouldn’t be seen as some ludiricous human rights violation not to.
What do I think? I think there’s men who think they are women, and men who think they are dragons, and men who think they are elves, and men who think they are Napoleon, and men who think they are the ‘world’s greatest ethicist’, and the only reason we fix one by indulging the delusion and not the rest is politics. I think men who think they are women are encouraged to mutilate themselves because they serve a purpose to those who have a bone to pick with gender roles for completely other reasons. I think ‘transgendered’ people are victims of the political forces that enable them to act on their delusion. I think you’ve had enough to say about the downsides of indulging the delusional to endorse something like that.
I think you’re presenting the arguments of the opposite side as weaker than they actually are. People just recognize that gender isn’t something absolute and unchangeable, so when a person’s gender they were assigned at birth doesn’t fit the one they actually feel like, it’s a fixable problem and it is (or should be) the right of the person to decide what their gender is and if they want to undergo hormone therapy. I don’t think I’ve said it’s no big deal - gender identity obviously IS a big deal to such people and well, almost everybody. It takes plenty of money and especially exercise and dieting for females/males who want to change gender and appearance, I think the last thing they need is to get discouraged without a good reason, just because some people have some sort of emotional aversion towards them.
Now of course, you can’t, nor should anybody be able to force people to call somebody they view as a male a female or the other way around, but that doesn’t mean people shouldn’t try to at least understand what transsexuals are going through in today’s society and open your mind, which doesn’t mean to uncritically accept everything they say but to listen.
As I said, I think you’re presenting strawman and not actual arguments. Those men already feel like women, they claim they have minds of women trapped in the body of men - they aren’t claiming they think they, as a whole (outward appearance+mind) are females, if they did they wouldn’t try and change their looks through surgery.
And well, that Napoleon has been reborn is very improbable, Napoleon is only one and we haven’t witnessed anybody being reborn so far so there’s no reason to take that claim seriously… actually, you as a Christian should be far more open-minded to that claim (Christ rose from the dead). Elves haven’t been proven to exist, nor have dragons. Claiming you’re the greatest philosopher in the world in any area isn’t as extreme as the previous ones, is it? Cause at least ethicists exist. I think a couple of of people could claim that title and they could, possibly, be viewed as such, though I know who you’re probably thinking about . We could try and come up with some decent standards to judge how good of an ethicist one is… maybe not precisely and reliably pick off the best, but surely people who have PhDs in ethics and teach in the biggest universities, write books etc. would be somewhere there.
But how are you going to tell a person they aren’t allowed to feel like a woman/man just because they aren’t born that way? How are you going to tell them not to get surgery and try to change their gender without impeding on their individual freedom, which I hear is otherwise very valued and appreciated in Americans.
I’m not saying you should call transsexuals who wanted to change from female->male or from male->female any gender THEY want you to call - I think we should still be honest and just call people as we see them.
I mean, I think you’d surely agree that the female at birth in the picture I provided is far more masculine than the male at birth, right? So what’s the harm in calling that person a him if you would otherwise recognize and categorize them as a male? Is it just a fuck you to transsexuals? I mean, probably the most reliable way for me to extract an honest answer is to ask you, a cisgendered (lol) heterosexual male who are you more attracted to… to be consistent with the bigoted (as I perceive it) worldview you embrace you’d have to like this:
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more than this
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After all, the former is born female and the latter is born male, so you as a heterosexual male should be attracted towards the former more if gender is unchangeable… right?
No. First of all, you're inventing the idea that we assign people a gender at birth in order to fit the fantasy story of the delusional people you're about to defend. 99 percent of the time, a gender is assigned at birth about as much as an eye color is. No need for that bullshit. Secondly, if a person doesn't feel like they 'actually are' the gender they are biologically, [i]that person is incorrect[/i]. Why? Because whether gender is absolute, you're still comparing obvious anatomical features to [i]a feeling they have in their mind[/i]. However malleable you think bodies are, minds are moreso. However much a social construct you think gender is, that person's idea of gender is moreso. If a person is so fucked up about gender that they want to [i]chop their dick off[/i] to make their body more like what's in their head, of course that is a fixable problem. But why would the solution take the form of mutiliating a delusional person in accordance with their delusion? All of that said, do they have the [i]right[/i] to do so? Of course they do. And people around them have the right to respond with "Holy shit, why did you do that to yourself, stay away from my children," or "Holy shit, why did the mental health community encourage you to go through with this instead of giving you the actual help you need?"
But of course you're here to fight transphobia. It's in your thread title. If you were just meaning to say that people have a right to do things like this:
Which would include screwing up their genitals like that guy screwed up his face, then that’s a completely different argument, as we don’t have a special adjective (yet) for people who say that guy is a twit. We don’t have a special underclass of humanity (that I know of) to define people who want to look foolish such that they are immune to social pressure and protected from criticism for their choices. So you aren’t here to merely advocate that people have a right to something, you’re plainly here to make your case for stamping out vocalized disapproval. And that’s where I take issue, because:
1.) Not allowing society to call delusional bullshit delusional bullshit is 1984-type dangerous, and,
2.) The mental health community does these people no favors encouraging them to mutiliate themselves.
Ah I see. So if a person who is clearly male decides in his heart that he's a woman and wants his dick chopped off in order to bring that desire into reality, the burden of proof is on [i]everybody else[/i] to justify why they think that's unreasonable or should be discouraged?
Do you understand perhaps how I see this as in conflict with other things you've said in other places?
Oh, ‘of course’, is it? You think it’s so fucking obvious that there won’t be laws against public bathroom restrictions and that calling a tranny by the wrong gender pronoun won’t be a hate crime in our near future, eh? You’re already using transphobia as a term to disparage the views of basically every human being who ever lived prior to 2010 or so.
Who are you even talking to here? You’re setting the bar incredibly low. I tried to understand what they are going through, I opened my mind, I listened to what they have to say, and my conclusion is what I’m saying in this thread. Now what?
Right, which is not any different from people who claim to have the minds of ancient samurai warriors or elves or whatever trapped in their bodies.
Actually, plenty of them DO claim to actually be whatever gender it is they imagine themselves to be, and plenty of people claim that it’s a form of hate speech if you don’t acknowledge them as such. What are you even bringing the word ‘transphobia’ into the discussion for if you don’t know that, much less advocate it?
Jesus Christ, they're fucking examples. Imagine then a white man who thinks he has the mind of a black man trapped in his body. He goes to Sweden to have his skin dyed and starts calling his 'soul brothers' 'my nigger'. [i]DO we fucking indulge him or don't we?[/i] The point is not your hair-splitting about why some delusions are more plausible than others- the point is that people having absolute conviction that they are something they plainly are not is a condition that has been with us forever. If you want to nit pick my examples, I'll jut come up with other ones until you accept that simple point. If you have a functional knowledge of the history of feminism and gender issues in the West, then it will become obvious that people who think they are a gender they are not have been elevated from people who think they are some-other-thing they are not purely for political reasons. People who want to say certain things about gender find people who claim to be a gender that doesn't fit their body [i]useful[/i] and that's the beginning and the end of it. If you have trouble accepting the relationship there, then I suggest you begin researching the otherkin community, and see how just frequently thinking you're a gender you aren't really goes hand in hand with thinking you're also an elf, or a dragon, or a samurai, or a Sith Lord, or whatever. You'll find these things run together (a far greater percentage of transsexuals have beliefs like this than the norm, and a far greater percentage of people with these beliefs are transsexuals than the norm), because they are part of the same general mental problem.
Right. So we’ll agree on our conditions of what makes a good ethicist, using all reason and common sense and probably a reference to the world at large. We’ll evaluate the person we’re thinking of, and we’ll conclude that they are certainly not a great ethicist. Fine. Then a tranny will come along who says “I’m a lady!” And I’ll apply a very simple test, far easier and far more reliable to your ethicist test to determine that they are not, in fact, a lady. Then the sort of people who think ‘transphobia’ is a thing will have to say “Well actually, um, uh, that’s a complicated matter, and um, uh, who think they they are inside, and um uh” and you’ll have to pretend I’m the one that’s being inconsistent.
Who said anything about telling a person how they are ‘allowed’ to feel? This is important to me. Where did that notion possibly enter into your head other than from some bullshit Tumblr page out to create a strawman to make ‘transphobics’ seem like cartoon super villians? Have you ever heard any human being ever say to any other human being about any matter, sexual or otherwise, that “You aren’t allowed to feel like that?”
I’m not telling them not to get surgery. I’m not telling them anything at all. But there are PLENTY of people telling them that their delusions about their gender are real, and that surgery is the only thing that will help them, and that anybody who disagrees with this is a ‘phobic’ who wants to ‘tell people how they are allowed to feel’. Why are YOU doing THAT? You’re the one filling these people’s heads with bullshit that ultimately leads them to chop their dicks off, and then,
I say tell these people the truth- they are confused, delusional, and what they believe is no more real than what a person who thinks they are a Smurf believes. Tell them that the surgery won’t improve their lives, and that they are mutiliating themelves. Don’t put any special burden on society to accept these people, treat them like just another catman. If, after all that, they still want the surgery and can pay for it because it is clearly just as elective as any other cosmetic surgery, then what possible reason could their be to not allow them? What individual freedom do you think I oppose? Where have I said people shouldn’t be allowed to chop their cocks off? Is that even a side any substantial number of people are making? I oppose your attempt to brainwash society by tossing around this new -phobic buzzword and treating these people as something other than they are.
Um, of course not? Lets assume you’re a heterosexual male too like you did to me for no reason that I can discern. If I show you a drawing of a sexy sexy woman, and a drawing of a muscular dude, and say ‘which one is more attractive to you’, then you’d say ‘the woman, obviously’. If I go on to say "Oh yeah? Well this ‘woman’ I drew actually has a giant floppy dick that isn’t in the picture, and the ‘man’ I drew has a vagina, I guess that make you gay!'. I think you would immediately see the problem.
Isn’t it obvious that we’re attracted to appearences, and not the things in themselves, especially when the appearence is all we have to go on?
Simply put, you can’t sensibly have rigid sexual orientation and malleable gender in the same worldview, and you’ve just shown why, but the left doesn’t give a fuck about coherence, it’s all about agenda.
If sex and gender belong together, then: A person’s sex is not assigned at birth but long, long, long time before the birth. A person’s “gender … doesn’t fit” is as long nonsense or even a lie as this person has the same sex that he/she had long time before birth. A person’s “hormone therapy” does not change the sex of this person. This person merely thinks that his/her role does not fit and perhaps wants to change this role. That’s all. This person can do it; so there is no problem at all. If you are a man and want to behave like a woman: okay, just do it! But your sex can merely change, if you eliminate your sexual organs in order to get the new (female) sexual organs. If you are a woman and want to behave like a man: okay, just do it! But your sex can merely change, if you eliminate your sexual organs in order to get the new (male) sexual organs. But this is what 99.99% of this “male-female” and “female-male” persons do not want.
I did mean biologically assigned, not socially assigned.
I thought you were all about “free will” and “mind above body”?
I don’t think gender is a social construct, I think it’s biological, so your argument is undermined. I also think it’s possible that a discrepancy between the person’s bodily appearance/gender and their desired bodily appearance/gender arises.
But why is it a delusion? I’d agree that in some instances it would obviously be a delusion - if a person thought that they are born female when they are born male or the other way around etc. But you can’t really deny that one feels like a female, especially if they are f.e. diagnosed with a hormonal imbalance.
But why treat them as mental patients if they are otherwise sane? Why does wanting to be of a different gender automatically make you so much of a threat/disgusting or whatever that you’d want to limit the contact of your children with such people purely on the basis they are transgender and nothing else? TBH it reminds me of how atheists are the most distrusted group in America, treated as worse than murderers and rapists. It’s irrational fear, wouldn’t you agree? And isn’t it the same with transsexuals, just irrational fear/bigotry?
I mean, I agree they are not normal, they are a tiny minority so of course they aren’t the norm, normal, but that doesn’t mean they are insane/dangerous and should be socially ostracized.
I put “transphobia” in title because I’ve noticed this trend of non-rationalized hatred and wanted to address it somehow. I’m not one of those lefties who think calling the other >a category of people< + >phobia/ist< wins me arguments and makes me right magically.
F.e. I can understand why somebody wouldn’t want to hire a tranny or a person looking like the catman in a position where they need to attract and communicate with people. There would be complaints and all sorts of complications would occur. But that’s exactly the kind of mentality I’m addressing here - why not judge people according to their behavior and merits instead of by their looks? Wouldn’t that be far more reliable?
Why make life a hell for people who choose to look differently than you’d want them to?
As I said, I’m not in support of 1) as I’m an advocate of free speech.
But why do you think these people should go to a mental health community if they are otherwise healthy and sane? For making you question your own strict sense of what sexuality should and shouldn’t be?
As I said earlier, it’s very freaking odd to hear such deterministic positions argued by you. I thought you were all about free will and dualism of mind and body? What you’re saying here, if I understand you correctly, is that a person’s sense of self is directly related to their body, genitals, hormones, brain and everything physical and that they can’t be detached.
In other words, if you watch one of those body swap movies where a male and female switch bodies, just like me, you’d consider it impossible because you appear to think that what a person is, is their brain and hormones.
I mean ‘of course’ in relation to my views and standards. I’m very much aware of the existence of radical progressives who are trying to legally enforce similar things to what you’re talking about.
I admittedly haven’t seen any examples of that. Usually it’s a person claiming that they feel like the opposite gender and then they go through surgeries, hormone therapy, diet/exercise etc. and then claim they have become the opposite gender. I’d agree that in some cases (perhaps even most), they still look like their birth gender mostly.
I’ll just say I don’t indulge anybody to do anything, I don’t like interfering in people’s personal lives. I will call them out if I think they are for some reason degenerate or whatever.
That otherkin stuff sounds pretty much like any other religion to me though.
My knowledge of biology is poor, but wouldn’t you have to change the entire genetic makeup of a person to make them black? That’s a whole lot different than just undergoing a hormone therapy I think. I do the relationship between modern feminism and how they could make use of trannies.
I think that the problem with the point you’re trying to make with the ‘white man with mind of a black man’, which I understood to be that only a crazy person would think they should be something they obviously don’t look like they are, is that when it comes to transgender people, they often have hormonal imbalance so I think that can be counted as a reasonable justification for them feeling one gender but looking the other.
It does say that the quality of their lives is improved significantly after surgery though, and don’t you think that matters at all?
Hah, and the right gives a fuck about coherence and is not all about agenda? Do I really need to remind you how quickly the religious right will claim that observing rape/murder while having the power to stop (and when you are the one who caused it, according to some) it is not only morally justifiable, but consistent with all-love, omnibenevolence?
Sure, which obviously doesn’t mean that I’m an Asian woman who can breathe fire just because I ‘feel like I was meant to be’. Except, of course, you would arbitrarily pull one of those clauses out and treat it differently than the others because politics.
Haha. Well no shit a discrepency between a person’s bodily appearence/gender and what they desire can arise. How many people wish they were 50 pounds lighter, or 4 inches taller, or 4 inches shorter, or paler skin? The question isn’t whether or not people can dislike some aspect of their appearance. The question is why we treat this case differently than all others.
If they are a man and think they are a woman, they are incorrect. If they think it so hard that they are willing to chop their cock off to make it real, then they’re suffering from an obvious mental problem producing these incorrect beliefs. This fits in precisely with what you’ve declared delusions to be elsewhere. Remember, I’m not the one saying these people are mentally ill. There’s basically no disagreement there. This gender reassignment surgery is billed as a treatment for a mental disorder. My objection is that if they are disordered, as the mental health community claims, it’s a disorder of delusion and you don’t treat those by indulging the delusion. To do so is
Sure, just as I can’t deny that a person feels black, or feels like an elf, or feels Japanese (I really think so), or feels like they are inhabited by the spirit of Coyote. What I can deny is that the best form of treatment for such a person is to mutilate their body in accordance with their feelings.
First of all, that’s almost never the case. The kinds of people we’re talking about suffer from other mental conditions way more often than the general population. Secondly, why would a mental condition have to come bundled with others in order to treat it like it is? If I think aliens planted a chip in my belly and I’ll try to dig it out with a fork if I’m not constantly monitored but I’m otherwise sane, I should be treated normally and left to my own devices? If a person is so afraid of birds that they won’t leave their house and board up all the windows and jam pillows up the chimeny but they are otherwise sane, they don’t need treatment for their phobia, and maybe birds are really that bad after all? I just don’t get what you’re trying to say here.
I don't think it does. I can imagine all sorts of women wanting to be men back when women couldn't vote or own property or do much of anything but cook and look pretty. We're not talking about people who would like to be a gender they aren't because they see some advantage. We're talking about people who [i]sincerely believe they ARE some gender other than what is biologically true, and are willing to mutilate themselves to make it real.[/i]
Maybe on a case by case basis, but not necessarily. If a woman decides to go to Sweden to have a dick surgically attached to herself so she can fuck women with it, I wouldn’t think treating her like a pervert would be mere fear or bigotry- she’s pretty obviously a pervert by the standards of just about everybody who’s ever lived. Sure, you might disagree, but I’m not the one trying to tell you how you have to treat people, and it’s certainly not mere fear or bigotry to treat people who violate your moral norms as if they’d violated your moral norms. This is straight up judging people according to their behavior. If treating people according to their behavior is ‘fear and bigotry’, how are we do even do ethics?
Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be either. People are ostracized when they violate moral norms. Just because you disagree with those norms doesn’t make the ostracization mere bigotry. It’s judgment based on behavior.
But you are aware that if the tranny movement gets what it wants, it will be illegal not to do so, right? I think it’s awesome though that you have your head screwed on tight when it comes to the above, though. That and forcing people to use the wrong pronouns for these folks are my major gripes, so it sounds like we have a pretty good margin of agreement about this issue, actually.
Judging somebody because they chose to get their dick cut off based on what they ‘feel inside’ or because they chose to have surgery to make themselves look like a Nazi supervillian
That’s not the question. they are already seeking mental help on their own, and are part of the system, and my concern is that the system is encouraging them to mutilate themselves because of gender politics. If people who wished upon a star that they were a man instead of a woman just let it be a wish (we all have them), I certainly don’t think we need to go find them and ‘treat’ them or whatever if they aren’t hurting themselves or anyone else.
No, I don’t, because they don’t back THAT part up with statistics- it’s just a thing they are saying because the Guardian is a leftist rag. The actual statistics show that these folks are basically just as mentally ill, and just as likely to kill themselves before the surgery as after. Do some show improvement after surgery? I bet they do. But how many people who at one point consider such surgery and ultimately dont go through with it show improvement in their lives for completely other reasons?
Coherence isn’t always nice. Besides, I think you’ll find most philosophers of religion aren’t on the right.
It’s not the same. Women who believe they are women trapped in man’s bodies, and the other way around, can change their appearance to fit their sense of self. The kind of delusions I criticized you’re referring to I assume are religious people, the obvious difference being that nothing religious (or non religious) people do can actually affect the existence (or non existence) of God
The difference, as I pointed out, is that almost all of these transgender people have hormonal imbalances, which means it’s possible for them to feel like women/men but have the body of the opposite sex of how they would want themselves to look due to their hormones.
Is it a surprise that they suffer from mental conditions way more often than the general population when they are hated and ostracized by the majority? Though I guess it could also be that the reason they are hated and ostracized by the majority is precisely because they suffer from mental conditions and are for that reason perceived as disgusting. I’d rather not make leaps in any direction here.
I’m trying to say that people can change their body and voice and personality and everything to that extent that they actually do become more similar to the gender opposite of what the one they were born into. People who have a fear of birds can’t give reasons why and can’t provide evidence of birds actually harming them. People who think they have an alien chip in the belly can be examined in an X-Ray/autopsy and their claim refuted. They can’t present evidence for their claims. Some transsexual people, as I pointed out, can embody more traits characteristic of the gender opposite of their birth gender than a person who was actually born into that gender.
So how do you propose to solve the transgender issue?
Concentration camps? (kill em all)
Jesus camps? (try and convince them they don’t really feel the way they do)
Or maybe try and convince them they don’t really feel the way they do, but have people with diplomas try to do it?
I’m not a supporter of the tranny movement, I just feel bad for transgender people who are discriminated on the basis of being transgender because I don’t think it is something they can choose to control. Of course, whether they will mutilate their genitalia is within their control, but the desire the be the other sex physically I don’t think is, it’s a result of a hormonal imbalance they don’t have any control over.
Coherence isn’t always nice? What do you mean by that?
I think most Christians are slightly more to the right than to the left, would you really disagree or are you taking into account all other religions, such as possibly leftist oriented eastern ones? Cause I’m pretty sure that philosophers of 2 biggest monotheistic religions, Christianity and Islam, outnumber others.
Oh, and regarding feminism and transgender relationship:
I assume you’re referring to gender feminists, but shouldn’t they be opposing transgender people? I mean, transgender people want to look like the stereotypical male/female and they want to achieve it by undergoing a surgery to make them look that way. Are people who try to embody the gender stereotypes really the ones who are of use to gender feminists, who want to destroy gender and gender stereotypes? The transsexuals implicitly support the position that gender is biological and not a social construct, and that the only way to fully change it is to undergo procedures which biologically alter a person, as well as the position that there are certain, appropriate ways for men/women to dress, behave, look etc.
It’s quite possible that different sections of feminism have different views about transgender people, another possibility is that feminists are just too freaking dimwitted to realize their own hypocrisy/inconsistency.
Yes, and so can a white person who believes they are a Japanese person trapped in a white person’s body. But for that particular flavor of crazy, you don’t feel the need to give them the benefit of the doubt like you did in the above, and come up with a special word to condemn people who think it’s silly like you did when you created this thread. Why? Because feminists are jerking you around, because they have a vested interest in creating confusion about gender. They’re simply harnessing this sort of crazy person to do it.
Oh, of course. And in a couple decades when we have the tech to jam a brain into a different body and have it work, a man who thinks he’s a dolphin trapped in a human’s body won’t be delusional either.
I don’t have to accept obvious bullshit just because it’s politically correct and neither should you.
Even if that were true, which you have not cited, why would we correct a hormone imbalance with surgery, and why would a delusion caused by a hormone imbalance not be a delusion?
Right, am I'm pointing out that this obviously doesn't affect whether or not their initial belief is a disordered state, and you damn well know it, and I dont feel the need to tolerate bad arguments just because of political correctness. A person who thinks he's a lobster can die his skin red and get all but two fingers cut off from each hand [i]and who cares he's still a nut job[/i]. We agree on that (or Lord I hope so), so why are you playing silly games about just this one thing? Anyway, it's kind of a moot point. You're the first person I've met who doesn't think trannies are crazy. The actual political divide is people who think trannies are crazy and need to be helped to adjust to their gender or otherwise deal with their confusion, and people who think trannies are crazy and need to have their bodies surgically altered to fit what their delusion tells them it should be. The whole justification of the surgery involves proving that needs gender reassignment surgery because they are suffering from a serious mental problem that it will allegedly fix (but statitically does not).
Of course they can! Bird shit on you and carry disease and can swoop down and pluck your eyes out. It’s entirely possible that a person like this was attacked by a bird as a child or knows somebody who was. Apparently you don’t talk to many people with phobias, but the reasons they give for them are at least as reasonable sounding as people who think they’re an X trapped in a Y body. And don’t even get me started about the people that think the reptilian aliens running the Senate are monitoring their thoughts.
Yeah, except that just about every belly of every human on earth is going to have some smudge or white spot or something that comes up on an X-ray that a doctor will have to admit is an 'unknown cyst or tissue growth' that will lend credence to their claims. Just like every human on earth is going to have memories in their childhood of thinking/being treated like the gender they aren't or the species they aren't or the race they aren't if they want to go that way.
You seriously overestimate the ability of the rational to outthink crazy. I would think you've talked to certain folks on here long enough to cure you of that. :wink:
You didn’t say some, you said ‘almost all’.
Well, the first step would be to get people on your side of the issue to think about it clearly instead of making weird statements like the above, as though regular people are suddenly evil bigots because they aren't on board with a social justice movement that's younger than some of my nose hairs. If you truly are seeking insight instead of just...waving your hands around being all excited, then I put this question to you: There are plenty of people in the world who think they are a species they are not. How do we 'solve' the 'issue' of them? What makes you think 'we' need to 'solve' anything at all?
It depends. The ones that are in favor of the dominance of women DO in fact oppose transgender people, they see them as usurpers. But as far as I can tell they are a minority. Most feminists are either of the sort that is merely using feminism to push for social marxism, and for them undermining any sort of societal structure that isn't the state is a good thing. Then you have 2nd wave feminists that have been denying there is any difference between men and women, or that such differences need to be aggressively destroyed in order for equality to occur. So it just depends. But yes, the transsexual movement is a product of a certain type of gender politics.
Estrogen causes female mental patterns, testosterone causes male mental patterns. Structure changes, structure moves, there is no body, there is no gender, there is no Mind.
Why do Tranzes seem to have Jew noses. All the tranzes i nose seem to have Jew noze. Mountainju watermelonju ryeju tranzju. junoze.
This is a complete no-brainer.
Gender is far more complex than "male and “female”. Only a damned idiot would think so , and only a evil person would insist on imposing the supposed “norm”.
Gender complexity is not just a human problem, but can be found is several species. In humans it is not simply about choice. Gender is a strong motivating force, that I suggest, it is unwise to fight against. There are numerous examples cross culturally, and throughout history.
Although culture and learning is a big force in our lives, with gender I think it’s mostly innate. You can interpret your orientation in various ways, but basically you are aligned at birth.
Races have different characteristics from one another. To acknowledge that is not negative. What is negative is putting people down and calling them hateful things. I have love towards Jews and Tranzes (as long as they don’t eat fast food.)
Do you have love for anything other than your love of hatred?
Just because Mel Gibson played me in a movie doesn’t mean I hate Jus. I like all kinds of jus, fruit jews grape jews ryejews all jews. As for mel gibson, his anger is actually a misplaced form of love, he is just mad that they killed me for no good reason 2000 years ago.
I still think there’s a difference in degree between claiming your mind is trapped in the body of another gender and claiming that your mind is trapped in the body of another race. I admittedly haven’t payed much attention in biology classes (nor do I think fundamental biology would be much help on this), but I think that what race one is is determined exclusively by DNA/genes, but how one feels, what one’s mind is is also determined by hormones.
And I still think you’re conflating a desire, a want, something that a person thinks should be and a delusion. It’s impossible for humans to have the same biological hardwiring as dolphins, it’s possible for a male to have an overabundance of estrogen or for some other thing to cause them to act feminine for reasons other than insanity. I’m not sure what would be the proper treatment. Perhaps if they received the dominant hormone of the gender they were biologically assigned at birth their desire to change their gender would vanish, perhaps they would remain crazy and feel even more repressed.
And the point about phobias is acknowledged.
I’d just like to add that I don’t think the social marxist and 2nd wave feminists you were talking about would like it very much if you proclaimed trannies crazy, so no, I don’t think I’m the only one, though being categorized with feminists who I know otherwise to mostly be full of it makes me really question my position regarding this, and I wouldn’t say transsexuals are a product of a certain type of political movement, rather that they are used by it to support some people’s agenda, like you initially said.
That much from me for now, perhaps I’ll revive the thread when I educate myself a bit better about it.
There is an absolute case for never allowing pedophiles to act according to their desires. It would never be ‘progress’ to allow that.
But I do not fear them, nor find them disgusting (until I allow my imagination to feel as a child would feel).
Pedophilia is not part of this debate.
For trans-issues we are in the realm of desire leading to outcomes that are voluntary.
Under-age children cannot volunteer to participate. There are no exceptions to this.
Arbitrary bollocks.
I have brown eyes, my brother has blue. We might as well be different races? My friends’ twins are one black one white; children of the same parents can have different skin colour. It’s all bullshit.
But not only are you full of bullshit, your comments above were insulting, and stupid.
I didn’t know you thought that absolutes exist when it comes to ethics, Lev. Are you slowly beginning to embrace the Christian within you? Or is it just rashness and emotions speaking?
I remember reading it on some forum, a guy asked a good question: If animals can’t give consent, is every animal sexual intercourse ever rape, and such a rape in which both participants aren’t consenting… lol.
The point I’m making is, consent isn’t absolute. Animals can give consent, they don’t have the mental faculties to do it on a human level and communicate it with language, but they can do it bodily, and usually very unambiguously. I never tried to have sexual intercourse with an animal, but a cat f.e. will physically communicate to you if it wants to cuddle or not, or for how long.
I think some teenagers are more mature than some adults, and even if you disagree about that, what of intellectually handicapped people with extremely low IQs? Some authorities are trying to make it so they aren’t allowed to have sex because they aren’t capable of consenting with the same amount of consideration and judgment most others can.
Realistically, the reasons why an adult shouldn’t have sex with a sexually mature under 18 person are more based on social convention and practical reasons than on some clear, natural distinction, which disappears when one becomes sexually mature.
What’s next, are you going to deny that black people have darker skin on average because you once got a tan and appeared darker than Michael Jackson?
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. We could try and come up with some decent standards to judge how good of an ethicist one is… maybe not precisely and reliably pick off the best, but surely people who have PhDs in ethics and teach in the biggest universities, write books etc. would be somewhere there.
