Getting to the bottom of spirituality

I meditate every day. When I sleep. :smiley:

I do not think you understand what meditation means. Can you recall your sleep states? Or are they a period of unconsciousness/intoxication.

Yes I know what meditation is. I was joking. I can remember dreams usually. Like last night I had a pretty weird dream.

I knew you were joking (emoticon gave it away).

Arthritis, compressed disc, allergies, and a severe case of permanent klutziness. If I don’t bleed at least twice in a day, its amazing, thin blood makes it worse. Scared the hell out of many a person, :slight_smile:

I would give myself the drugs, I would not put another in such a position, something could go wrong and they would have to live with it. Nope can’t do that.

“We”, “us”, “our” are not the correct words, because there are differences. Some people think this “will help” them, some people will think that “will help” them, some people think nothing or/and nobody “will help” them; some people think this shall or should “help” them, some peoplel think that shall or should “help” them, some people think nothing or/and nobody shall or should “help” them. There is no “universal way” of “help”.

Which definition do you have for “bottom of spirituality”? How would you describe the “bottom of spirituality”?

I was using the Royal we…

The bottom of spirituality may be a black hole.

It is for me after that first cup of coffee wakes my system up.

The bottom of both of spirituality and most of the religions are mental practices like meditation. Everything else was built around it, as the ontology of the existence progressed with time. Myths and morals were found, derived and brought later into religions to enable those to offer a complete life style and something such, in which folks can have faith.

Although, it helps a lot in many ways, yet faith is not the connerstone of the religions. But, unfortunately, most of the adherents of the religions see it otherwise.

with love,

Before any other poster questions me, let me take it one step further to clarify.

A religious person may have faith in Jesus, Muhammad, and Lord Vishnu etc and can think that the job is done as his place in the heaven is secure. But, he is very much mistaken. The fact of the matter is that he is no better than an atheist, as far as the original and strict aim of the religions is concerned. The gods of different religions would not favor any of such followers over atheists.

One may philosophically agree that there is certain type of God. He may be right but it would not serve any purpose to him. He is no better than such a person who philosophically disagrees that there is any god. One may believe or practice certain morality because of faith. That is fine but if he thinks that would give some edge over atheists in the eyes of the god, he is completely wrong.

Like, a theist may believe in compassion, honesty and speaking truth because of any religious faith. In the same way, an atheist may believe in same things because these morals look good to him. Now, both stand at equal footing in the eyes of the God. A theist will not get any extra points for his beliefs.

[b]Faith must be deep enough and cross a certain threshold, only then it starts serving the actual purpose. It must be able to manifest a certain level of concentrated mental stage ( neither mindset nor perception) to get the real things going. Then, one has to built upon that further. That is the essence of spirituality or religions, and the God/gods acknowledge that too.

Secondly, one can technically achieve such mental stages even without having any religios faith whatsoever, but only up to some initial level. It is very difficult or almost immpossible to elevate after a certain point without having deep faith.[/b]

with love,

Well summarised Sanjay. In think your clarity is of great benefit to ILP.

Morality and virtues (religious or non religious) generally serve the function to create certain dispositions or characters that then enable spiritual development. Without these dispositions it is not possible to achieve any spiritual progress.

This may even be in the context of a loving relationship with a partner (gay or straight). Without certain moral and ethical dispositions of character the spiritual development of the relationship cannot and will not progress beyond sexual gratification.

I would tend to agree that without faith, generalised spiritual development (not that connected with specific persons) is extremely difficult but not impossible. Spiritual development is extremely difficult even for those who have strong faith let alone those who have little or none.

I would put forward that the faith does not necessarily need to be faith in God or gods. But their does need to be “a” strong faith (whatever that may be).

Moist toilet paper. I always found that dry paper was a bit abrasive.

A black hole as the bottom of spirituality seems to be a very interesting one. Do you mind going into details?


Mental practices like meditation. Good.


“Black hole” (Jr Wells) and “mental practices like meditation” (Zinnat). Who of you is the first one who brings the tow together? :slight_smile:

Perhaps the result could be like this:


Your joke didn’t work as they do not use toilet paper. They use moist towels to wipe you clean.

I was joking about the black hole… referring to an anus.

I am all for mediation… whatever that means to the individual is up to them to decide.

:laughing: I thought that that was funny.

What would help me is NOT having my bottom wiped. I’m going to die in a few minutes or moments - do I care about my bottom NOW?

Can someone ever be truly alone when they die even if there is no one there to hold their hand, etc.?
Wouldn’t memories come to us in these moments which would or could help carry us along through that door?
I wouldn’t mind dying alone if I could be at the beach, lying in the sand listening to the sound of the surf, the cry of the seagulls, et cetera…except that I would want my children with me - not for my sake but for their sake - so that they would have the opportunity to say GOODBYE to me. Saying that final goodbye is so important. But I suppose it would also be important to me because of that. Goodbyes are important.

From what other posters said I assume you are a female. When you are in the process of dying you will most likely be in pads (nappies) with a catheta stuck up you pee hole and your vagina will most likely have poo in it. You will have various staff members change you and clean you several times a day. You can be in this state for weeks, months, or years before you die; with UTIs being a regular experience (especially as a female).

Chances of dying at the beach are slim. Unless you are eaten by a shark, murdered, drown, or are in a plane crash.

From what I have seen, generally speaking your children will not be present. They may visit a couple of times a week as they will have lives to live. Naturally, this is not neccessarily the case for you but is rather just an observation of our society as a whole.

If you are in pain, then it is hard to draw on the fond memories of your family. Cast your memory back to when you had a migrane or severe back pain (or something similar). What was going through your mind (your dearest loved ones or I want this pain to go away)?

Given all this, what do you think may help you?

What’s the difference?


Type in “human spirit” into Google and Wikipedia.