Getting to the bottom of spirituality

It is for me after that first cup of coffee wakes my system up.

The bottom of both of spirituality and most of the religions are mental practices like meditation. Everything else was built around it, as the ontology of the existence progressed with time. Myths and morals were found, derived and brought later into religions to enable those to offer a complete life style and something such, in which folks can have faith.

Although, it helps a lot in many ways, yet faith is not the connerstone of the religions. But, unfortunately, most of the adherents of the religions see it otherwise.

with love,

Before any other poster questions me, let me take it one step further to clarify.

A religious person may have faith in Jesus, Muhammad, and Lord Vishnu etc and can think that the job is done as his place in the heaven is secure. But, he is very much mistaken. The fact of the matter is that he is no better than an atheist, as far as the original and strict aim of the religions is concerned. The gods of different religions would not favor any of such followers over atheists.

One may philosophically agree that there is certain type of God. He may be right but it would not serve any purpose to him. He is no better than such a person who philosophically disagrees that there is any god. One may believe or practice certain morality because of faith. That is fine but if he thinks that would give some edge over atheists in the eyes of the god, he is completely wrong.

Like, a theist may believe in compassion, honesty and speaking truth because of any religious faith. In the same way, an atheist may believe in same things because these morals look good to him. Now, both stand at equal footing in the eyes of the God. A theist will not get any extra points for his beliefs.

[b]Faith must be deep enough and cross a certain threshold, only then it starts serving the actual purpose. It must be able to manifest a certain level of concentrated mental stage ( neither mindset nor perception) to get the real things going. Then, one has to built upon that further. That is the essence of spirituality or religions, and the God/gods acknowledge that too.

Secondly, one can technically achieve such mental stages even without having any religios faith whatsoever, but only up to some initial level. It is very difficult or almost immpossible to elevate after a certain point without having deep faith.[/b]

with love,

Well summarised Sanjay. In think your clarity is of great benefit to ILP.

Morality and virtues (religious or non religious) generally serve the function to create certain dispositions or characters that then enable spiritual development. Without these dispositions it is not possible to achieve any spiritual progress.

This may even be in the context of a loving relationship with a partner (gay or straight). Without certain moral and ethical dispositions of character the spiritual development of the relationship cannot and will not progress beyond sexual gratification.

I would tend to agree that without faith, generalised spiritual development (not that connected with specific persons) is extremely difficult but not impossible. Spiritual development is extremely difficult even for those who have strong faith let alone those who have little or none.

I would put forward that the faith does not necessarily need to be faith in God or gods. But their does need to be “a” strong faith (whatever that may be).

Moist toilet paper. I always found that dry paper was a bit abrasive.

A black hole as the bottom of spirituality seems to be a very interesting one. Do you mind going into details?


Mental practices like meditation. Good.


“Black hole” (Jr Wells) and “mental practices like meditation” (Zinnat). Who of you is the first one who brings the tow together? :slight_smile:

Perhaps the result could be like this:


Your joke didn’t work as they do not use toilet paper. They use moist towels to wipe you clean.

I was joking about the black hole… referring to an anus.

I am all for mediation… whatever that means to the individual is up to them to decide.

:laughing: I thought that that was funny.

What would help me is NOT having my bottom wiped. I’m going to die in a few minutes or moments - do I care about my bottom NOW?

Can someone ever be truly alone when they die even if there is no one there to hold their hand, etc.?
Wouldn’t memories come to us in these moments which would or could help carry us along through that door?
I wouldn’t mind dying alone if I could be at the beach, lying in the sand listening to the sound of the surf, the cry of the seagulls, et cetera…except that I would want my children with me - not for my sake but for their sake - so that they would have the opportunity to say GOODBYE to me. Saying that final goodbye is so important. But I suppose it would also be important to me because of that. Goodbyes are important.

From what other posters said I assume you are a female. When you are in the process of dying you will most likely be in pads (nappies) with a catheta stuck up you pee hole and your vagina will most likely have poo in it. You will have various staff members change you and clean you several times a day. You can be in this state for weeks, months, or years before you die; with UTIs being a regular experience (especially as a female).

Chances of dying at the beach are slim. Unless you are eaten by a shark, murdered, drown, or are in a plane crash.

From what I have seen, generally speaking your children will not be present. They may visit a couple of times a week as they will have lives to live. Naturally, this is not neccessarily the case for you but is rather just an observation of our society as a whole.

If you are in pain, then it is hard to draw on the fond memories of your family. Cast your memory back to when you had a migrane or severe back pain (or something similar). What was going through your mind (your dearest loved ones or I want this pain to go away)?

Given all this, what do you think may help you?

What’s the difference?


Type in “human spirit” into Google and Wikipedia.

For me spirituality can be visualised as worlds; the divine infinite [top layer/realm/sphere and transparent light], the worldly level [middle and colour], and the blackness/illusion level [base/below] which is made real in the worldly realm.

Between the three can be thought of as a pillar or staff, or in eastern thinking as the chakra’s from base or the sexual chakra through to the crown or upper thought centre. The blackness/illusion rises up the staff finding its first candidate for exploitation in the sexual spiritual centre usually expressed as ‘power’[in the psychopathic sense]. In the stomach is the layer of serpents/snakes/lizards and i think generally as you move up the spiritual pillar, you move up through evolution.

This is like a blueprint or background manifestation platform reality makes utility of in order to form conceptual objects or some such thing, it represents the means or pattern to which things inevitably evolve when the conditions become right.

So down to earth; it is illusion which is usually responsible for our inability to act socially in a given sense. Though i think we can all see past this, the threat to power/strength causes embarrassment at a situation, and our inability to do anything about it causes a spiritual weakness ~ again in terms of power. Mostly it is a failure at the societal level which weakens us most, society casts off the old as if throwing away rubbish and then it hides the evidence.

Solution; there are only two things, the class of ‘everyone is alright’ and the class ‘some people are alright’. It is because we are ruled and preached to by selfish immoral capitalists, communists, Muslims and whathaveyou, that there are always groups of people who are alright and the group who are not alright. We all try to fit ourselves into the alright group/s, yet this can only be resolved at the universal or societal level i.e. Our Governments and international community.

Illusion is always dualistic, and dualistic philosophies always cause suffering and don’t help the sufferers.

Solution; move all politics to the class of ‘everyone is alright’.

There will still be suffering and things of the world which are out of our control. However, if we make our society better [as in, not ill] at least then we are doing everything we can, and when we say that there wont be a hollow ring to it. Our loved ones will be comforted, the ill, the addicts the aged will not be cast into ghastly concrete communist government schemes, nor have to die alone in old peoples bungalow’s and flats [which are majoritively in a segregated area of a community].


Yes, when conditions become right.

Secondly, there is no Eastern or Western divide here. These things work out in the same way to all, irrespective of their faith, mindset or perception. This way of investigation is the actual cornerstone of all the religions. That is a different issue that some religions talks about it while some not, because different religions have different audiences and different goals to suit that audiences. But, there is no other way whatsoever.

It is neither an illusion nor anyone can avoid or see past this in any way. Without having this vision, it is bit like a blind trying to see in the dark, and concluding that there is nothing to see their at all, then trying to understand things only by touching.

with love,

This poem by Coleridge is not really about meditation per se but your words called it to mind for me.

What If you Slept

What if you slept
And what if
In your sleep
You dreamed
And what if
In your dream
You went to heaven
And there plucked a strange and beautiful flower
And what if
When you awoke
You had that flower in you hand
Ah, what then?”

That’s a hauntingly beautiful poem to me.


Please explain? What is ‘this’?

Illusion in druidism is the third circle of reality, with earth 2 and Cuagant 1 [the divine infinite]. That is the kind of ‘illusion’ i was referring to. I believe it is similar in the east in that the highest spirituality is unity [1] which is degraded by duality, and illusion is the furthest degredation of unity?

So how is this spirituality and not psychology?

Look up the meaning of spirituality.
Every thread within ILP can ultimately be placed within psychology.

If you are an idealist, for example, but otherwise no they can’t.
I see nothing in the OP that cannot be covered by psychology. What’s the best attitude in a situation? What is nicer to experience?
It seems like a question focused on pragmatic approaches to dying given X and Y about minds.
I see nothing that has to do with spiritual matters as distinct from psychological ones.
The term spirituality is used this way by some people, where there is nothing to do with spirit per se, or religious entities or concepts - religion taken broadly to incorporate pagan, folk and other beliefs that deal with non-corporeal being and existence.
But the term has then lost any meaning and would be better left out.

IOW I can acknowledge that the term is used in this meaningless way, but I see no reason to.
We could then expand the set of spiritualisty even more:
The spiritual way to turn on a light is to use the light switch, since this is easier and more pleasant than making a torch every time one wakes up to pee in the night.
And so we can absorb engineering in spirituality and call the most mundane engineering solutions spirituality,
just as the OP seems to want to imply spirituality can be called that when it is really merely psychology.

For me all psychology is not spiritual - nor is say, cooking. Though there could be spiritual psychology or spiritual cooking. But then you need elements not currently accepted by mainstream science.