Glorified Chimpanzees

Darwin reminded us that despite our posturing and our grand schemes we remain but super-chimpanzees: ephemeral biological forms organizing in complex unities and driven by the same motives - even if, in our case, they become convoluted and buried beneath hyperbole, evasive psychological tricks and clever semantics.

Hegel stated, and Nietzsche agreed, that art, religion and philosophy were mankind’s most “sublime” pursuits and what differentiated us from our beastly brothers.

Some believe that civilization, culture and the state constitutes the pinnacle of man’s ambition to be more than what he is and to rise above himself, while others believe that these human unities result in the exact opposite effect and that they really extinguish or subdue the real source of man’s sublime ambition, which is within each individual that seeks to overcome itself; the Apolonnian struggling and controlling the Dionysian.

The idea that nature itself is driven by some hidden and unconscious purpose, producing “higher” and “better” forms insinuates that the state and culture are the end result of this natural upward surge, yet some would contend that nature lacks the consciousness or will to focus her energies effectively, and that she squanders and wastes herself by creating mediocre multiplicity so as to bring about that special specificity, and that progress is not always an ascension. Perhaps man is an attempt by nature to become more efficient and wilful in her pursuits.

For these last the striving for “higher” and “better” forms culminates in chance “…scattered and accidental existences - Nietzsche” of individuals springing forth from a sea of mediocrity, that exemplify a true ‘human being’.

Plato tried to find a compromise by inventing a social unity which protected and promoted these accidental individual instances of greatness (philosopher kings) but failed to convince us as to how such an idealized state could become a reality, given man’s fundamental nature, nor how it could be maintained, for the same reason.

The problem is further complicated by the ambiguousness inherit in the notion of “higher” or “better” and what would characterize a real human being and would make him stand out from his many glorified-chimpanzee brothers and sisters.

Questions:
Is the idea of a higher and better man – call him “overman” or “philosopher king” or simply human – even possible and if so what, in your opinion, would define him as such?

Is the sate, culture or any form of unification the route towards the production of such an evolutionary leap or are such productions doomed to remain “scattered and accidental”?

Satyr -

There is a difference between an overman and a philosopher king - this seems to be your very thesis, if I understand you correctly - they are not equivalents. The overman transcends societal constraints, and would be no ruler of men. The philosopher king is actually closer to and more compatible with Hegel’s conception, at least in that he believed that man’s greatest mode of expression is the state.

I think Nietzsche may have been hyperbolising a bit when he suggested that the overman was truly a different species - let’s say it might not do to take him literally in this. But he would not be an expression of the state - he would not fully participate in what we take to be “higher” cultural goals, as usually defined. These would be more of a springboard for the overman. Nietzsche saw the march of civilisation as a grand morality play. The overman would see through this and go beyond this. Morality would be abandoned by the overman. This is not to say he would live with a guilty conscience, but with no conscience at all.

I seriously doubt that :smiley:

Satyr, I think I understood your preamble. :smiley: I hope you don’t mind if I edit your questions.

You ask:

I think we have to hope the idea of a higher better Human is possible because I sense that at our present level we haven’t long to live relatively speaking. (But does it matter?)

You also ask:

Surely the unification of humanity is the only route toward the production of such an evolutionary leap. (But is it possible?)

Glorified Chimps…? :laughing:

You haven’t gone far enough back down the food-chain. Try the stuff living at the back of your fridge.

The disguise may change, the wearers do not.

Tabula Rasa

Yes, but let us start from a more manageable cutoff point.

Otherwise we can further our “going back” and say that we are but matter or …Nothing.

DEB

If it doesn’t, then the answer is no.

If so, then we aren’t really talking about an advanced human, as in individual man, but about a new organism made up of humans - a superorganism.

This is the conflict between society and individual.
Even Democracy becomes hypocritical.

faust

Agreed.
In this case the ‘better’ would be a product of negation, just as an identity is the product of negation and discrimination.

The denier destroys or questions and in so doing rises above what he questions and destroys or he forces it to become better under his scrutiny and attacks or he causes it to be obliterated and replaced as not worthy of his loyalty.

Sorry, I had a bad case of “React to the title, and don’t read the post.”

Spontaneous Chemical Replicator evolution–>Short-lived Organic medium for idea/memetic evolution–>inorganic/artificial evolution (meme->tech)–>Alchemic wedding of organic/inorganic–>Long-lived cybernetic medium for memetic evolution–>Parallel alignment of individuals–>Sublimation–>many in one–> Eventual ‘Godhead’.

Process driven inevitably by original principles of survival, efficiency, and ‘fear’ leading to extention and control of enviroment. Simplicity to complexity.

The smartest guy in the room is everyone.

Whacky I know, but the way things will go I think, if we manage not to accidently wipe ourselves out.

[size=75]PS: This is all a bit ‘hopeful’ for you dear Satyr… What happened…? Didja win on the horses or sumfin…?[/size]

If the idea is possible so too would be its subsequent implementation. It goes without saying many a ‘higher’ individual has already manifested throughout history, and the suggestions which presume a higher humanity at large could also manifest only seek to ask, at bottom, ‘Look, he did it - why can’t we all?’ Such a view is inherent in religion, for example, where many adherents are indeed engaged in the pursuit of living as a given prophet did; and Nietzsche also made much of humanity’s ‘highest specimens’ as exhibiting our real potential, that we ought look to their behavior for guidence.

As to the second half of your question, in at least a limited and general way, I’d argue philosophy at large aims to answer precisely this question: what defines our optimal state of existence? As such a question demands a rather complex and vast answer, I’m not sure there’s a ready-made response.

Supposing it wasn’t, were these things not in line with our (potential) progression toward a higher state of existence, there would be quite the mass of red tape to unravel before we could take another step forward. That is, should we be in position to evolve beyond our current capacity, we must move forward from where we already are.

Tabula Rasa

I started getting laid regularly…… It kind of takes a bite out of bitterness.

Why do you think many great philosophers never married?

But…“hopeful”?! :confused: Really?!!

Daybreak
I agree with what you’ve said.

And that’s why we are here.

Satyr

The overman IMO would be a person having come to “Know Thyself” and become master of himself. Since as we are, we lack self knowledge and will, it seems obvious that becoming an overman if possible, would take quite a while and tremendous effort.

I remember reading once where one of the assistants to the Tsarina Maria Alexandrovna asked Rasputin after watching all the attention he was getting, what it must feel like to feel so important. Rasputin replied and I paraphrase, "it is not me that is so intelligent but they who are so “stupid.” I look at the overman like this. It should be somewhat normal for a visible percentage of humanity but the fact that it is considered so special indicates how far we have sunk.

The survival of the state to remain as it is requires its attempt to keep people as they are so I cannot see how it could aid such an evolutionary leap. It would require those that have acquired self knowledge and the will necessary to be master of themselves to teach individuals, free of societal restrictions, how to do the same. But they are not easy to find.

Having nothing against any of you. Except for the occasional few people. For the post in most of the forum, is like a chimp at a typewriter.

Though in the keeping of reading the posts. Atleast you are giving it the due of confronting the subject. To the point of an idiot, though are not we all. If some reading ( having wanted to post this writing, for some time,) was done, most of the answers would be there. For only you can answer the question.

The idea is possible and the higher/better human is defined by an increase in depth of consciousness. Depth of consciousness is of course just a summary of the complex differences between people, but it’s a very useful concept. It also provides theoretical backing for the common-sense idea that humans are higher than other animals, for example.

Individuals and societies co-evolve, and it’s a two-way street in that they influence and push each other to a higher state (when they are healthy). Isn’t that what the education system is about - society pushing children to reach a rational mentality, ie. a higher level of consciousness than childish magical thinking.

Satyr,

Higher and better than what? What we are is sentient. We have the capacity to generate ego. It is only in ego that we can illusively stand outside ourselves and speak of more illusion of higher and lower. The assumptions behind art, religion, and philosophy as somehow placing us “higher” is questionable at best. Different? Obviously. But there are any number of animal species that seem to have greater “wisdom” than does man. Oops. I forgot. That’s just instinct, right? It is both our pleasure and our curse, this thing called sentience. The tiny handful capable of seeing beyond all the constructs of mind is the same tiny handful in every generation - and we destroy them as quickly as we find them. The overman has at once discovered his humanity and has lost it at the same time. His fellows will not tolerate such a being.

The true evolutionary leap would be unification of understanding, but would appear as “scattered and accidental” - just as it has since we climbed down out of the trees…

please remember that “human” is NOT a species, it’s a concept.

The most united and uncorrupt organizations/societies/groups naturally outpreform the disunited, corrupt groups.

Civilization overcame the moral anarchy of nature.

But later collectives will overcome civilization.

[* Walks back into a borg cube *]

more or less -

Thanks, man. You saved my life.