God and His Children

Okay, it looks to me like God created the cage of the universe and then put his test specimens, humans, into it. Now he tells many of them indirectly(Bible), maybe a few of them directly(the prophets and with revelation yada yada), that he exists and he wants them to follow his moral code. If they follow it, they will go to heaven, and if they don’t they go to . Now, the key event here is when he created man and gave them souls. Either God created every single one of these souls equal to eachother, or he made them innately different. It doesn’t matter which one is true, they both destroy free will. If the former is true, then god just threw his seeds all over the place (oooo, reminds me of one of them Bible stories) and they got beaten around by the wind (universe of causality) and landed in different forms of ground, where some grow(good soil, heaven) and some die (pavement, ) and then some land in pergatory, whatever that is. Now this is unfair for obvious reasons, the seeds can’t alter their course, the souls have different environmental situations that they cant change. Ok, the latter, creating every soul different innately, making some good, some bad, some sheep, some individualists, blah blah, is unfair also, certain souls are set to go to heaven and other are set to be eternally d.
So what is the universe, huh? A humongous experiment? I wonder where I’m set to go. Or wait, God is self contradictory, he says we have free will, so he don’t exisssst.

Just a theory, please examine, and cut and slice and hack at the weak points.

Well here is an alternative. There are many different spirtual realms and levels. Life being one of the lowest of these levels, and what circumstances in life one finds oneself in is also composed of different levels. All souls start out in the highest spirtual levels or heaven if you like. Since souls have a freewill, they may lose there standing in the highest spirtual realms and be sent down to earth for example with the purpose of according to the Torah anyhow to be cleansed. This cycle is continual until the soul is able to get back into the highest spirtual realm once more. This system works out and is very similar to the principles of Karma only that it extends to speculative spirtual realms. The problem in such a system is the bibles emphasis on the body and its share in the world to come. The body is promised reward as well as the soul. And now you get into questions of are you body and soul and if so and your reincarnated which body gets reward and what happens to the body in the higher spirtual realms and so fourth… nevertheless I think it solves the problems that you posed concerning god, souls and freewill.

Clever fiction eh? And we look back on the ancient world and are amazed at the amount of time they spent arguing over their mythology.

What about the idea that God, himself, is not omnipotent and cannot control our will and actions because he is unable (lacks the power) to do so?

He might be all seeing, and therefor able to predict the future to SOME degree, but is basically looking for a surprise. Something different, entertaining, and colorful.

THAT he’d let into heaven.

That’s a pretty kool idea theundergroundman, but I’m looking for more of a Christian response. God said that you go from this life straight to heaven or and are eternally in either.

Oh, and groupb, I never said anything about God being able to control the actions of humans. I said that humans can’t control how they come into the world and how their environment is. God puts each of them in different test conditions and they have unequal chances of getting to heaven or .

I guess what I was getting at was that God creating man and throwing him into a big screening operation is absurd.

How about saying that there is no way to know the intent of a creator or, indeed, that there was/is any intent behind the game? The observation that it appears absurd would have no meaning to a creator.

By accepting the concept that we cannot know we are left with the important task of constructing our lives as best we can.

JT

If you let some people just write away, they come to see the light in the end…

Shalom
Bob

I sense Pascal’s Wager in that post. I need a better answer.

Oh, and another thing. I don’t think anything anyone does in life deserves eternal punishment. I’ll accept the concept of temporary hel, but not forever.

Hmmm, Christians say that nobody deserves the deatth penalty, but hel is alright for them. What?

Let’s see. This topic has been posted before, this is a stupid topic, or everybody sees that I started it and refuse to read it :cry:

Well, I think this is important. ANSWER.

How wrong you are. We are operating under the assumption that God is perfect and has the power to create and place individuals according to his exact will. Now tell me why it’s so absurd that the Almighty Creator would want to be loved and praised. He created humanity to praise Him, because he’s the only thing in the universe that deserves that kind of worship. He’s perfect.

But Man threw it back in God’s face. Man sinned and because of that, he was separated from God. This isn’t some absurd test. God made us one way, in perfection, and in His image. Then WE chose to separate ourselves from Him, and now God is trying to save us. It’s not that He can’t send everyone to heaven and live “happily ever after forever” it’s that by allowing us to choose our own paths and choose to love Him and be saved, He can save us, and not take our free will, which was His passion in the first place.

Think about this, God didn’t put us in this place. He didn’t force your parent’s to have sex that fateful night, they did of their own.free.will. Therefore your parent’s put you in that position, not God. He did make you unique, and He made you in His image, and therefore empowers you to make your own decisions and place the people around you in different situations, just as your parent’s did to you. And don’t give me crap about growing up in some third-world country where you’re worse off than in America, because God din’t put you there, YOU did, and if not you, then someone else. Stop blaming God for your problems.

We are innnately different, but once again, we CHOOSE to go to heaven, we certainly aren’t sent there.

You’re set to go right where you’ve set yourself to go, think about that one. God’s never said anything to disprove free will, so where’s the contradiction, friend?

Shalom

Well, that still sounds like a test. He creates the test specimens and gives them free will. Then he rewards the ones who “choose to love him” and throws the ones who can’t figure out how to “choose to love him” in the garbage.

Whoa. You’re saying that god created the first human beings, and then they created other human beings like god created them? That’s the ogy of: god is to me as I am to my son.

God created the first human beings with the ability to reproduce, but all human beings are his creation, except, maybe, frankenstein. That’s what they call playing god, but I’ve never heard anyone say that married couples are playing god when they have a kid.

A woman is giving birth in a broken down hut. Gunfire can be heard from nearby and are falling all around. There is the choking stench of smoke in the air as the breeze blows it through the drafty hut. The baby finally pops out and thinks, " , what have I gotten myself into"

It is definately god’s fault for poverty, oppression, war etc., he threw all humans into one cage.

If that was the case, then everyone would be in heaven. Nobody chooses to go to dammit!

Ok, if you want to think of it in the context that some make it and some don’t, then it is a test. But in a test, some can do better than others correct? therefore, If I “score” better on God’s test than you do, then I recieve “more” Heaven. This is untrue. My salvation is the same as yours, we recieve the same Salvation through Christ. It doesn’t differ from person to person, the Sin we are saved from may differ, but our Salvation does not. It is a choice, and nothing else, with everything on the line.

Congratulations! We have miscommunicated. You have twisted my words, which perhaps were not as clear as they should have been. I apologize and will right this wrong now.

This is what i am saying: God made you in His image, with free will, the choice to do right or wrong. Every choice you make (though it may not be between right and wrong) puts you in a new circumstance. You move from point A to either Point B or Point C. Even if you don’t choose, you still end up at Point D. Now based on that truth, I can communicate the rest of my point.

I do not create my son in the way God created me. I did not say that, I did not think that, I did not mean that, so dispell that thought. However, I did mean that Humans are put on Earth by God in the beginning. Those humans reproduce and bear children. Now if God put the Humans at Point A on the map, and they move 50 miles west to Point B on the map and that is where the children are born, then those children are in the place that their parents specified, not the place that God specified. The parents chose to be there, and the children must live with this choice, until they can make their own choice to go to another location.

That is why you cannot blame your circumstances on God.

I suppose it’s God’s fault that the woman got pregnant too, huh? I suppose God forced her to have sex with her husband, or her mate, or if she was raped, it’s God’s fault, because he forced the man to rape her. And God forced whoever is firing the guns to pull the trigger. He forced their bosses to get pissed at whoever and decide to start shooting. You’re racking up a lot of points on the “I like shirking responsibility scale.”

It is definitely His fault? Because he threw them all into one cage? Last time i checked, the fact that i live next to someone doesn’t mean that i will eventualy murder them or oppress them. I have to choose to do that. God put us on one earth, that doesn’t mean that all of the poverty, oppression, war, etc. results from just living together. You can’t use God as a scapegoat for this one. Humans chose to do all of that, God didn’t force them directly or indirectly to do it.

Wrong. No one will choose eternal damnation, true. But thats not what most of us choose. We choose “immediate satisfaction” instead of “eternal satisfaction.” If people knew they were going to Hell, most would change their mind, but they don’t all they know is they’re doing something wrong, but it doesn’t matter, cuz it’s ok now. what they don’t realize is that “now” doesn’t count in Heaven. They’re walking into Hell, they may not recognize it as Hell, but they certainly know where they’re going.

And yes, people choose daily to walk into Hell. They’re too absorbed with what they’re doing to look aroud and see the choice at hand. Remember, no choice, is the wrong choice.

There is a heaven and a , and you’re going to either one. It’s a test to see, as you say, who makes the right choice and who makes the wrong choice, and to split them up. No matter how you twist it, it’s still a screening operation.

My point is that god created humans. He created them knowing that all this would come. If he didn’t know this would come, then it’s all a big experiment for his amusement.

Please elaborate.

Oh, and can you please respond to this post I made earlier (have we been avoiding it, buddy?):

[b]"Oh, and another thing. I don’t think anything anyone does in life deserves eternal punishment. I’ll accept the concept of temporary , but not forever.

Hmmm, Christians say that nobody deserves the deatth penalty, but hel is alright for them. What?"[/b]

I don’t want to go too off-topic (haven’t had the chance to read every reply yet) but whilst I understand this is merely your opinion (“it looks to me like…”), there are probably at least ten or twelve assumptions you’ve made in that first post alone, many if not all of which can be refuted.

And sorry for bringing this discussion down to basic Hume-esque skepticism. :smiley:

EVH

Yes, I agree with you, EVH! My first post is very weak, but it developed into something I passionately want to debate about. Read the rest of it! It’s getting better with every post I think. But this is also something I’m worried about. People are going to be turned off by the first post. Whatever shall I dooooooo?![/b]

The idea of us living our entire lives trying to please God and prove to him that we “Love him and praise him” so we can join God in his eternal slumber party of blissful happiness is absurd. What about those of us that simply do not want to be here in this world? What about those of us that dont want to praise the “perfect scientist” that created us? The ones that respect every human being and try to make the best out of this shitty situation we’re in? Im getting ahead of myself because this is all assuming that there is a “God” that there is a “Heaven” and a “Hell” and that religious fary tale you call the “Bible” is true.

Another thing… most Christians dont even TRUELY love God. They are so BRAINWASHED about going to heaven or hell that they dedicate their whole life praying and worshiping God motivated by FEAR.

before any Christian actually says hes living his life loving and praising God, think… would you be living your life the same way if you knew you were IMMORTAL?

-SS

If you want to contribute to this thread, then please put it in my God’s Big Screening Operation thread. I have created another thread for more publicity because of my first post flop in this thread.