God knows everything, therefore he knows exactly how everyone feels and all their physical sensations, pain/pleasure etc. If he didn’t know even some minimum physical sensation of pain or pleasure in someone, if he didn’t directly experience it exactly and completely, there would be some items (and important ones for that matter) that he really doesn’t know. There would be things outside of him, that he doesn’t know or feel or maybe even control.
So god sends the bad boy to hell. He must be feeling exactly all the pain, directly, physically, he must be experiencing exactly what the bad boy in hell is feeling, else he would be a minor god, just a god who vaguely knows that fire hurts but doesn’t really know and can’t have (or doesn’t want ?) the direct experience. So god feels extreme pain forever, and the pain of all the millions in hell and at the same time all the pleasures of all in heaven and at the same time all our lives here on earth.
So how can you feel extreme PHYSICAL PAIN AND PLEASURE AT THE SAME TIME ? No way, without breaking the logical laws of contradiction. Either you are enjoying or you are suffering. You can’t be both so this wacky god can’t possibly exist.
Another deep contradiction is the fact that to really know a person god would have to be exactly that person, 100% exact without any further knowledge or powers. If he experiences a person’s life but from the outside or with some other knowledge or power, HE CAN’T POSSIBLY EVER KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THAT PERSON FEELS AND REALLY IS. Once again he would be a minor god, or a false god, or a clown, or just a god who punishes but doesn’t want to feel all the pain he furnishes. So god can’t possibly exist, ALL RELIGIONS ARE FALSE.
"Can the addition of knowledge in one mind let that mind understand a mind with less knowledge ? So god knows more than us but at the same time HE DOESN’T KNOW HOW IT IS TO HAVE LESS KNOWLEDGE! So he knows something but he also does not know something we know. So we know something that god doesn’t even though he knows millions of other things compared to us. "
"He has to be exactly you to know exactly what your feelings and mental states were. He can’t be you plus anything else. That is a different entity.
You are different from god, you are not god, god is not you, he can’t know you like you know yourself. He is a superset of you plus something else. That is different. "
In other words god has to live your exact life, all your experiences and physical sensations he must be EXACTLY YOU NO MORE AND NO LESS to know you in every detail. He must have your exact same knowledge and memories etc. He must be you exactly otherwise he is missing on some information. And even more bizarre he should know MORE THAN YOU OF YOUR OWN LIFE! He should be constantly re-living every moment of you life over and over again to really know, NOT JUST REMEBER IT OR HAVE A NOMINAL KNOWLEDGE OF IT, but to really know every microsecond of your life he must be constantly experiencing every microsecond of all the millions of people who have ever lived and who are IN HELL and in heaven.
"So does god feel all the pains of all the people in hell ? Does he feel all their suffering exactly like them ? He would also have to be exactly a person in hell burning all the time without knowing anything else like god knows, he would have to be EXACTLY HIS OWN VICTIM! Does he also feel at the same time all the pleasures of heaven ? And at the same time all the pleasures and pain on earth ? "
"So bringing it a little further we can say that god also feels everything the devil feels. And he knows all of the devil’s mental states and decisions. And he is also EXACTLY the devil when the devil operates. So god is the devil but at the same time he isn’t but at the same time he loves the devil but at the same time he can see, feel and manipulate the devil’s free will and IS the devil’s free will.
So god is the devil otherwise there would be something independent from him, he would be a lesser god. There would be items of the universe which he can’t control or manipulate or BE and feel. So if he is everything he is also nothing. Or maybe there are many subgods and supergods. So he can also contradict himself and IS contradiction. What a carneval of contradictions, what a risky metaphysical being this god is. "
if we experience enough pain we die, so our pain couldnt be overwheming for god if he’s experiencing our lives and he doesnt have to make any changes to increase happiness for the same reason. the universe was created with laws of balance.
Why is knowing how someone feels equivalent to feeling it yourself? “God knows Joe is in pain” doesn’t seem to entail “God feels the pain of Joe”. There’s certainly nothing about Omniscience, traditionally understood, that says that God has all of our experiences as we have them. Do you have some theologian or religious philosopher in mind who has claimed this?
Actually, all you've shown here is that according to your own definitions of 'knowledge' and 'complete', God can't have complete knowledge of a person- in fact, having complete knowledge of another person is a logical impossibility- in the same way that making a rock so big God can't lift it is a logical impossibility, drawing a square circle is a logical impossibility, and so on. There's a very healthy, lively school of theistic thought that says God can't do the logically impossible- the majority of theistic thinkers now, far as I can tell.
Either way, your argument doesn't work- if I take the position that God can do the logically impossible, then what do I care if some of the stuff He does is logically contradictory? If I take the position that God can't do the logically impossible, then I simply agree with you- "Yes, God can't have complete knowledge of another person in the way you mean. And?"
Then he is not all knowing. He is a puny god, a little god. There are things in the universe independent of him. He must abide to some laws of which he has no control, the laws of logic ? who created them ? are the laws of logic the real god ?
He doesnt’ know how a person really feels. What kind of god is that ? a minor god ? a limited god ? No god either really knows all or he can’t possibly exist.
I have often received vague answers like this. But if you talk about god in any way, you must use some logic, some language, something. But then if at certain points you arbitrarily say well this is a mystery, this is because he is infinite etc. then you really can’t say anything at all about god.
He has all the powers of the universe ? So then he can also have the power TO NOT EXIST. He isn’t dependent on existence. He is all knowing ? then he can also choose to know nothing, etc. He can also choose to contradict himself and everything he wants, he sends the just to hell and the unjust to heaven, hitler is in heaven. So you can’t depend on this wacky entity. Therefore he can’t possibly exist.
By the way, a typical the response I have when discussing god is “Jesus speaks to little children”.
So, then God doesn’t meet your definition of all-knowing. And?
This just amounts to you saying that God isn’t ‘cool enough’ for you. If God was really cool he’d be breaking the laws of logic. But…
...here's the problem. You assumed God must abide by the laws of logic when you posed your argument- after all, you yourself said He doesn't exist because some of His alleged qualities are contradictory. Logically contradictory = Doesn't exist, says you. That fact that you're assuming something that breaks the laws of logic can't exist [i]also[/i] implies an answer to your question "Who created [the laws of logic]?", does it not?
But now you say, that if God [i]does[/i] follow the laws of logic, He's puny. You simply have to pick one and stick with it. Are you arguing that God breaks the laws of logic, and hence can't exist, or are you arguing that God doesn't break the logic, but He would if He was really God?
Can things break the laws of logic, or can’t they?
A god that creates pain and hell and sends the bad guys there but doesn’t have the courage to feel their pain exactly and completely is a coward god. Is he too weak to bear burning in fire forever ? does he enjoy looking at the outside ? Is it pure sadism ? or maybe he can’t because of some intrinsical limitations ? then he is controlled by other laws of physics, by a higher god or by a part of his insane mind that doesn’t want him to enjoy the hell he invented ?
Religion is self defeating. If it is supposed to try to make some sense of the universe it ends up creating an even more insane and absurd description than if there wasn’t any god at all. And even if it is all true, then the universe is even more absurd, senseless and nihilistic than a godless universe.
Things can break the laws of logic, but they are not a personal god with a wacky mind that burns people. Or maybe he could exist but then a host of millions of wacky gods can exist too.
If god is all knowing he must experience the pains of hell. So he is not all knowing. There are things he doesn’t know. He has been put in a smaller box. A puny god. I thought god was bigger.
If he is a puny god, the universe is truly even more absurd than a godless universe. This is an aesthetic judgment. If he exist you will go to hell with millions of others. Because maybe he is Allah or some Maya god, and you bet on the wrong horse. Happy hell.
The biblical God’s jealousy and “morality” is all a form of partiality/bias/duality. Dual beings exist in the physical plane, they are not the fussion beings which can unite chaos and produce matter/energy.
Which biblical God are you talking about - there are at least three!
The God of Moses
The God of the Christian Church
The God of Jesus
Personally, the only God I recognise is the God of Jesus, i.e., the God within me, that of understanding and light, that which gives life, the word - without which there is nothing.
I can’t help but notice that you’re no longer defending your argument, you’re just bitching. Does this mean you’ve seen that the argument fails? After all, you’ve just admitted that you think things can break the laws of logic, so all your points about God contradicting Himself logically are meaningless now, since by your own admission he could contradict Himself and still exist.
First of all, who gives a crap what you thought, or what you call ‘puny’? That’s not an argument, it’s more bitching. Secondly, if God can break the laws of logic, then He can experience the pains of hell, and yet also not experience the pains of hell. He can experience the pains of hell while enjoying the pleasures of heaven at the same time and in the same sense. According to you.
Maybe start a new thread for this new ‘argument’. Your argument about God’s knowledge of other experiences resulting in a contradiction has failed.
whenever tackling god, one must first recognize what god is. If you recognize what god is, how can you claim he/she doesn’t exist?
It’d be like describing the guy next to you, who you can clearly see, than make arguments as to why that guy is not really there, while vividly describing every detail. It’s absurd.
Even if his/her existence is hard to quantify with logic and reason, the very fact that god has attributes proves his/her existence doesn’t it? And even if it doesn’t, the lack of visibility of god, doesn’t prove or disprove any of the arguments against the existence of god.
For example, on all-knowing and all-powerful… we claim to say that, “because god doesn’t remove suffering, god is either evil of nor all knowing/all powerful”…Could it be that our definition of evil and suffering are flawed, and that god knows better than we? It really comes down to suffering though… Is it bad to suffer? If you have an easy suffer free life, how can you ever grow as a person? If you always get what you want and never have to face challenges, how can you ever become a better person?
I view faith in his existence the same way… anything easy in the long run holds no value. You don’t appreciate things that are easy to obtain.
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Your lack of belief or faith in god is a sign that you are using free will and applied it to your beliefs. God is like a good father. What does a good father do? He loves his child and because he loves his child he gives him a little freedom. With this newfound freedom, the child explores his world and soon finds out that some experiences are not pleasant. The experience pains him, so he whines and cries and his father feels his child’s pain. But would the father stop this child from exploring more to prevent pain and suffering? If he does, then, when is the child going to learn his lessons? The father is at a distance guiding the child, giving him advices. So he talks to his child. It is up to that child if he wants to disregard the advice or to listen to his father. God is like the good father. God resides in our minds. He is there 24/7, he never tires, trying to speak to us all the time. Do you listen to him? Your belief and my belief do not change the truth. The only difference is I embrace God and you don’t. Your statement All religions are false, you are talking about organized religions and religious dogmas. True religion in my opinion is a personal experience with God. I don’t have to belong to a church.
OK, you are correct, my argument has failed. But what worries me is how bad can the universe be then ? This god or metaphysical entity could be many degrees more violent and furnish us many degrees more pain forever. And what if he furnishes an ever growing exponential pain ? what if the pain is beyond anything imaginable ?
The point is that there is no limit to how absurd the universe may be then. Absolutely no limit, and anyways we may be sinners and deserve the pain and any other religious argument may be correct, but there is truly no limit to how crazy the universe may really be. That is the real problem. This god may even punish all the people who have believed in any religion and send all the worst people to heaven. How can anyone be sure ?
How bad can the universe be ? INFINITELY BAD. There is no solution for insecurity, we cannot know. And the universe can be bad with or without god. Let’s hope it isn’t too bad. Those who have faith think they are saved, but deep inside they are also insecure, they may think well maybe Allah is the real god and I will be punished. Or maybe there is no real god, but we live in a computer simulation and the aliens simulating us will punish us etc.
Given the number of religions and gods, everyone has a very slim chance of guessing the right one. Ergo most of us will go to some kind of hell…
Religions can only exist if you are to be punished. All religions say more or less, believe in my god or else you will be punished in hell. Otherwise you can disregard it without any consequence.
If any religion is true, we are in trouble. They are all quite insane, so that means the universe is much more insane then if there were nothing at all. Of course the most reasonable explanation of the universe is based on science - physics, end of story. And even if a religion is true, it is probably somewhat reasonable, the god shouldn’t be too insane. Heaven and hell are never really explained well, because no one has been there and back.
Religions also cannot accept a contradictory god, else the whole religion falls apart. So there is still some hope…
A contradictory god would be one so powerful that he can decide to not exist if he wants. So that god would dissappear along with any underlying religion.