God is fully responsible for evil

God being the creator of all things must have responsibility when creating such an evil being such as satan. Granted that satan was not created equal, however, God being almighty and all knowing surely understood the consequences of his creation all too well when forming the being of Lucifer. Now even a simple man such as Einstein felt guilt after his theories led to the most destructive weapon on the planet. God, being 100% sure what evil would come of this diabolical being he chose to create with his own free will is surely responsbile for all evil that comes from the being, particularly when we have an all knowing creator.

I think the problem is treating Scripture as onto-historical fact. The Bible is not a history text, nor does it reveal the secrets of being and time. The Bible is a religious text. It reveals to us the developing conscience of a people as it strives through the challenges of history to arrive at the good life.

In other words, God is not a super-being out there, but just a character in a story.

Well yes, if you don’t believe it.

Since, ex hypothesi, God is responsible for all that exists, then yes, He is responsible for evil (if it exists, as it surely does). However, He is not blameworthy.

WW3: As a Christian (although many here deny me that status), this is how I escape the difficulty you mention.

There is no other way to reconcile a God of both limitless love and power with evil unless we remove either limitless love or limitless power from God’s character. I move to remove the latter.

Unfortunately few so-called Christians are willing to do likewise. What’s that old saying? They want their cake and to eat it too?

Well then it seems you have twisted Christianity to your own personal way and believe in your own religion, no offense.

Isn’t everyone’s religion personal?

What is your religion WW3? Reason? Science? Christianity? No offence, but you must have a religion… Hell, even nihilism is a religion… And that religion, whatever it is, is necessarily personal. No one has access to science or religion or reason “in itself” or even to how others have it. All we have is our own religion, our own science, our own reason…

Whatever Mr. WWIII believes, he’s got you pegged Aly.

Talk about having your cake and eating it to…

You want to deny the objective truth of the Biblical “meta-narrative” all the while making arbitrary statements about it as if it were demonstrative of some “truth.”

Why follow the teachings of the Bible if they aren’t based on objective truth? Your answer: Because you arbitrarily decide to. Christ says that there will be many who cry “Lord Lord” on the last day…and He will answer “Depart from Me for I never knew you.”

So, Aly, you must admit that you are completely arbitrary, or else admit that the Bible does hold to, at least in part, some form of objective truth.

As for the actual topic of this thread…Remark hits the nail on the head.

Christians are able to “have their cake and eat it to” with respect to this topic since it has been demonstrated that God’s sovereignty is fully compatible with man’s responsibility. (See Jonathan Edwards’ book “Freedom of the Will” or Luther’s “Bondage of the Will.”)

Anyone wishing to critique the Christian position on this topic cannot ignore the above two works, or the orthodox position described therein.

I don’t have a system of beliefs, I keep any beliefs minimal thus couldn’t be classified as a system. I guess the only beliefs I lean toward to yet aren’t firm on, is that the universe always existed and is infinite in size.

Oh, and by the way…

I wrote a humorous article attempting to highlight and clarify the orthodox position on this supposed “paradox.”

I posted it here at ILP in the essays and thesis section…

It’s called, “When Philosophers Try to Pick up Women.”

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=163968

WW3:

That’s not the kind of belief I’m talking about.

It’s not faith in statements, as in a leap beyond the evidence at hand to say that something is true. Rather it’s faith in a way of life. It’s having enough faith to follow that way of life, no matter how ridiculous it may be. It is not believing in ridiculous things (like some omnipotent creator being), but believing enough in a way of life to live your life that way… And all of us, even you WW3, lives a certain way. All of us through the lives that we live imply a belief, a faith in something, even if it is nothing as with the nihilists I mentioned.

So I say again WW3, what is your faith? What is your way of life? Do you pursue knowledge? Power? Pleasure? Perhaps even love? There must be something you live for, you live by, that you trust enough to provide what’s best for you that you follow it through… What is your faith?

Thats not faith, those are common values. I don’t believe in love, it just happens.

Faith 1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one’s promises (2): sincerity of intentions2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction ; especially : a system of religious beliefs

Shotgun:

No, I never said it was arbitrary. I said I use reason, and what I feel to be true, just as everyone does. Ultimately I have to go with what my heart tells me, because I don’t have a reason to do otherwise. It is from what my heart tells me that all reason is built. And if that is arbitrary, then we are all arbitrary, for we all follow our hearts in the end, even if it is our mind and its constructions that we love.

But I have a feeling you’re misreading me. To me this question of arbitrariness doesn’t concern the ability to call statements true of false. To me faith isn’t belief in some sort of knowledge, whether historical or ontological like the epistemology that you preach. Rather it’s faith in how life should be lived, enough faith to live life that way. The point of Scripture isn’t for us to think there’s a creator being out there or that we should accept some triune structure of reality, but rather that we should live a certain way.

My heart tells me the way God shows us expecially through Jesus Christ is right. (If only I had the courage to follow…To make my faith a reality…)

WW3:

Love doesn’t just happen. Love is work. I’m not talking about some emotion that comes and goes as it pleases, but the act of charity. It is deliberate, not spontaneous. Although how much lovelier the world would be if it was more spontaneous…

Faith to me is having faith enough to live the Christian life. It is living a life of unconditional charity (which implies a faith that this life will be provided for).

To me the question of faith is the question of provision. What do we rely on in our lives so that we can live? What do we have faith in? What do we trust? So yes, values for sure come in. My value, or what I think the Christian value is, is love. Christians trust others will show them love just as Christians love others.

And sure, this kind of faith is not in your list specifically, but those are all ambiguous statements…

I disagree as I could not control the love of my daughter… it happened due to inherent means that I could not control. The actions you do due to love is not love, it is a result of love… the work you speak of… the sacrifice, etc.

I trust in probability to some extent, because there is nothing else to do. There is no rationality behind freaking out if you think you might get hit by a car if you leave, which you can… that is of a different subject than religion.

WW3:

Now we’re getting somewhere… If you’ll allow me to twist your words a bit, you basically said your daughter can have faith in you. I think it’s wonderful that you provide for your daughter because it is actions like yours that give me the strength to have the kind of faith I speak of (the strength to live the life of a provider, like you are to your daughter). Your daughter’s faith is well placed, even if she is too young to realize it. It is well placed because it is placed in the love of another, in you her father, which is precisely where I want to place all faith (in loving arms, if only there were more of them).

You go on to say that you yourself (in comparison to your daughter) have faith in probability. But again allow me to twist your words… This means you have faith your knowledge of the likelihood of events can see to the provision of your needs (and the needs of your family), so much so that you live your life according to this knowledge. If a strange, sinister man was approaching you, you would probably start to move away. You wouldn’t go greet them with a smile and open arms.

If this is fair then this is indeed what I would call the makings of a religion (hell, I could write parables about it! Where the Jesus character is no longer the lover of life but the one who knows probabilities and lives by acceptable risk). But it is indeed not the religion I speak of, since probability of risk goes against love (Abraham runs to meet the strangers; he doesn’t try to avoid their disturbing eyes…).

Religion typically refers to the belief in a deity. I do not have blind faith. My faith is based upon knowledge and logic, thus in so it is not much of a religion but a logical outlook to thrive in this objective reality that we perceive subjectively.

What is an evil being?

What God created was the [i]free[/i] being Satan, which as far as I can tell, was not an evil act. I can concieve of a free being who goes on to do evil things. Is that what you mean by an evil being?  Either way, I agree with you to an extent- God is responsible for evil in the sense that there was no evil before He created stuff, and there would have been no evil if He didn't create stuff. 

But then, we have to give credit to God for everything good too then, yes?

If a guy goes and shoots a gun in a park blindfolded he may kill a child, yes? He didn’t mean to kill a child though, he just meant to shoot a gun in a park blindfolded, thats not evil is it? Not if you’re insane I suppose. The difference is, God shot a gun (made satan) knowing he would inflict the most horrid destruction upon mankind with his influence (temptation, etc) to the extent that it would cause billions of people to burn in hell eternally. The difference between god and the insane man? God knew full well what he was doing.

God didn’t create evil, He, if He exists, merely created a universe that spawned sentient creatures such as us with the free will to choose to do evil or not. Saying He is responsible for evil is the same as saying He is responsible for good. He made them possible, that’s all.