God vs. Satan Deathmatch!

I’ve read the bible a couple of times and spent a fair few Sundays in church in my life, and was always kind of fascinated by the story of Lucifer, as the most beautiful and esteemed angel, turning against God. The way it was taught to me is that Lucifer believed he could be greater than God, and so formed an army of rebel angels and declared war, which he lost. As punishment, God sent them all to hell and Lucifer effectively became Satan, King of the Underworld, where he now spends his time trying to acquire as many souls as possible, thereby denying God his own creation (us).

I had a little discussion with Kriswest over whether God sending Satan to hell was a punishment or a reward. My argument (speaking from a Christian pov for the sake of the argument) was that the only true (eternal) punishment God can inflict is to deny us himself, which he did by banishing Satan. Kris argued that to give someone their own domain to run isn’t exactly a punishment. This really got me thinking, and I’m inclined to agree with her somewhat. What the church teaches about Satan is that he’s evil the core. He wants no good for the world or mankind, and is downright afraid of the power of Christ. A being THAT evil would surely have no interest in being close to God, the source of all good, the only perfect being there ever was (following the idea that the divine trinity is three IN one). How, then, is it a punishment to be cast away from that?

Upon pondering this question and trying to somehow make it fit with what I’ve been taught of Christianity, I had an altogether blasphemous string of thoughts. Stay with me here, I’m not sure of how coherent this will be –

God, the Supreme Being, created all things, even his angels. Now, one might assume that if God created the angels and some of them rebelled, he must’ve given them the same power over their own fate as he gave us - free will. But what if, rather than Lucifer being an entity apart from God who turned against his maker, he was a part OF God? Here’s the scenario: God was wrestling with his own will, a part of himself that would cause him to think sinful thoughts and do petty, selfish things, a part of himself that was just downright bad. Being all-knowing and all-powerful, and able to get a better grasp on this internal struggle than we could ever understand, he decided to rid himself of this bad part, the way you cut the spots out of a potato before you boil it. By splitting himself this way he created two gods, one good, one evil, and they separated, the evil one running off to make his own kingdom elsewhere, leaving the good god to live peacefully in his heaven and sit in righteous judgment of mankind. However, both being a part of the whole, these two are still constantly at war with one another, what the Christians call the “spiritual war.”

Assuming mankind was created before the split, our capacity to do harm to ourselves and others begins to make more sense. God created us in his image, and gave us free will. If God was 100% holy and perfect when he created us, and he fashioned us after himself, wouldn’t we just kind of always make the right decision by default? Of course there is the option to do wrong, but we would/should only have the desire to do what is right at all times. If, however, we were created in the image of a god who was flawed, we would naturally share these flaws and therefore be susceptible to Satan’s temptations.

Now that you’ve summarized the modern traditional standing, can you explain where such a story exists in the Bible?

Yeah, the good ol’ devil. If you do some light digging you’ll quickly find that the way you were taught is by no means the consensus on the story. There are a lot of versions of the stories about satan, many of them ending in his still being an angel to this day. It’s interesting to look at. My favorite is that satan loved god SO MUCH that he was unable to bow to humans when instructed to do so by god, therefore god cast him out of heaven for disobeying him and to this day the devil still loves god more than anything else but hates humans for what they did to his relationship with god.

But more to your point. I’m not totally on board with your idea of Satan being a seperate entity of god’s whole, although I can see where you are coming from. One thing that I’ve always found interesting is that in general you’re told to believe that everything in existence was created by god, came from god. But if that is the case, in my mind, if god created everything… then that accounts fo EVERYTHING. So hatred, suffering, misery, all of the bad stuff. People like to tack on that those things come from the devil, but low and behold the devil came from god as well. Essentially there is a common denomonator in all creation, that being the creator.

For me it’s a two way street. Either some god created everything, good and bad, or a god had nothing to do with it. I currently agree with the latter.

The idea that god may have had an evil side at some point, I can agree with that. Only a selfish god would knowingly create a world with so much suffering in order to have creatures worhsip him. The idea of satan being a spin off of that is a fun one to ponder, but it leaves an open door. Why not send those negative feelings into a black hole or something else that would result in far less suffering for the creatures he apparently “loves more than we can ever understand.”

/shrug Who knows

I don’t believe I implicitly said I had read this story in the bible. I explained my Christian background, my fascination with the story, and then the way it had been taught to me.

Perhaps he couldn’t cast away that part of himself. Maybe the two parts were equally conscious and powerful and so one couldn’t cast the other out, or perhaps God just loves himself too much to do that.

I suppose you could think of ‘free will’ like an acorn falling from an oak tree. Though it is/was a part of a parent tree, it has it’s own self reliance for it’s future. It could be eaten by a squirrel, fall into a pile of rocks or embed itself into fertile soil and grow into another beautiful oak tree. This is somewhat of a simplistic analogy, but apropos.

If the tree the acorn fell from was healthy, then it is not too big of a stretch to assume the nut was too. Depending on the crap-shoot odds of it’s placement after dropping, it has received autonomy nonetheless.

Of course the seperation of an acorn and people is recognizable sentience. The Declaration of Independence states ‘‘all men are created equal’’. This is true in the ‘spiritual’ sense, but not necessarily in the physical end of it. Some people are born into poverty, while some others into wealth. While each environmental consignment may strongly be influential in one’s outcome, adversity can be overcome on both sides of the coin. That is to say one’s station in life need not be directed by that modality.

The point I am working up to is once God had created a being, it is my belief their ‘free will’ allows conscionable decisions to direct their life. Including angels, poor people, rich people, etc.
Regardless of what happens in the interim, we are ultimately responsible for our own lives. No matter the consequence we have the ‘free will’ to choose our own direction. Even though this may be only to points of degree or even large leaps of change, we can effect nomine personae spiritually.

Oh no, I got that.
I was merely saying the ironic part is you won’t find that anywhere in the Bible.

Luke and Revelation say something about it, don’t they? I mean, I know revelation is the red-headed stepchild of the bible and you’d have to really extrapolate to turn either it or Luke into the full story, and revelation is probably half about Nero and other historical figures, but anyway…some of it might just be about an angel falling from heaven, yes?

endtimeprophecy.net/epn-1/Ve … se177.html

If Satan is a god himself, then “Hail Satan”! :smiley:

But on a serious note, define God (If you can.) then see if Satan fits the same definition. If so, then perhaps you are right.

Edit:
Oh my god, check this out. :laughing:
http://www.angelfire.com/empire/serpentis666/HOME.html

I found this particularly weird.
http://www.angelfire.com/empire/serpentis666/Love_Spell.html

I don’t want to hijack this thread from the purpose it was intended for, so I’ll be making a new thread to go over this for any that are interested.

As to the hypothesis; I believe the holding of God and Satan as the counterparts of the same mind is extremely sensible. Especially considering that the Hebraic culture saw Satan as the prosecutor against man in the court judged by God consistently throughout one’s own life where one was one’s own defense by their deeds.

There were 4 components, of which 3 were absolutes:
The absolutes were that Satan would accuse you of all of your transgressions in life that made for a bad life, that you would always defend yourself regardless (therefore requiring the accusation of Satan), and that God would judge fairly based on what was presented by both and on his sense of you.

The one variable was you.
The wild card was whether you would live a good life or a bad one.

shrug
So sure…Satan and God can be easily seen as flip-sides of the coin in a perspective where you are the defendant.
To the defendant, there is only a fraction of a difference between the prosecutor and the judge.

In this post, I’m simply exploring what I thought was an amusing idea of the Christian faith, so my definition of God here follows what is generally taught, or at least what I understand to be generally taught, about God. To be more specific, I was introduced to the Baptist faith when I was a young teenager, and was taught that God is an all-powerful man in the sky. Also, he is his own son, Jesus Christ, as well as the holy spirit, which enters you when you accept Jesus Christ as your savior and endeavors to help you walk the path of true faith. He is our creator and our judge. He sees all and is so perfect that he will turn away from one who has sinned, because in his purity he cannot look upon sin, but will receive any prayers for forgiveness through his son. There’s a general Christian definition.

Satan, as the anti-righteous piece of God, would have to be completely the opposite.

I don’t believe I implicitly said I had read this story in the bible. I explained my Christian background, my fascination with the story, and then the way it had been taught to me.
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Oh no, I got that.
I was merely saying the ironic part is you won’t find that anywhere in the Bible.
[/quote]
Mmmyeah, that’s definitely not how that came across.

I do believe there is some basis for the story of the demise of Lucifer in the bible, but I couldn’t pinpoint you to exactly where. I honestly haven’t read the bible in years. Listen to Anthem, he probably knows what he is talking about.

So I’m just here for some knowledge as well, but if God can’t look at people who sin and if Satan is the other half of God, then why should God turn his back on us? Why should it feel like we have to “beg” for forgiveness? If Satan is the other half of God and God wants us to do good things in life, why should he look down upon us or can’t even look at us if we sin, considering the fact that if Satan is a part of God and is flawed, then as you said, we would be flawed by default. :-k

I look forward to your treatment of the subject. Can you include in your consideration of the possibility then that instead of a Trinity, the Godhead could be argued to be a four person being (if three is a “trinity”, then what does four form?).

Here you say that Satan is another part of God and that he is in fact a god. So that is why I asked that question. If God is all-powerful, then Satan must be. If God is all-knowing, then Satan must be. Unless, of course, he is no god.

If God is all-powerful to begin with, then why would he need to be rid of his “evil” self?

Now Satan as an opposite of a god would have the qualities of being ignorant, destructive, and would exist where we could see him ( :laughing:.).

In a religion forum? [-X :laughing:

Ehh, just in general lol

I’ve never been taught that I must beg for forgiveness if I do something wrong. Simply asking is enough.

Yes, if we take for granted that what I am exploring here is true, we are flawed because we were made in God’s image. However, I said “before the split.” A god who went to such lengths as to split himself to be rid of his evil side would surely be repulsed by evil in other things.

Perhaps to make himself a being that could sit in righteous judgement of our actions without being completely hypocritical.

Would he not be able to make a better judgment of our actions if he contained knowledge of evil?

I hope the other posters in this thread will pardon me for not reading their replies or interacting with them. I just don’t have the time at the moment.

However, I feel confident that I’m the only orthodox Protestant posting at ILP presently, and so I’ll provide a succinct theological presentation of God and Satan and hopefully Ms. Savant can gather something beneficial from it…trusting that one has yet to be offered.

Ms. Savant,

The only distinction in reality for the Christian is: God…and everything else.

Theologians refer to it as the Creator / Creature distinction.

Demons, Angels, banjos, and ducks are all part of creation. They all have creature status.

Each of these particular items of creation have eternally existed as thoughts in the mind of God. To Glorify Himself, God has manifested some of His thoughts into existence. So, therefore, to the Christian…the purpose of life (ALL life, even Satan’s) is to glorify God forever.

Since God is so big, His glory is manifested in different ways in creation. Some creations are meant to glorify his beauty; some, His grace; others, His wrath!

When looked at anthropomorphically, the only way God can bless men, or angels, is by creating for us material blessings. Thus, Satan wants ALL material blessings for himself, and he’s trying to destroy everything in his way. By robbing God’s children of their material blessings, Satan can hurt God. (No Creature can directly strike at God, since God is totally other…)

At anyrate…that sets the stage for the battle we are currently participating in. Christians love and are charitable to others, while evil men under the influence of Satan are conglomerating all the nations together; providing less and less diversity. Satan is trying to undo what God did at Babel so that all the kingdoms of the Earth are under a small group of rich oligarchs, who are under Satan. Then he will have effectively taken over ALL creation, and thus rule it, and own it all.

He’s greedy and hates those to whom God has promised to give the Earth.

That’s why Christian generosity is a revolutionary act.