Goodbye, Confederate Flag!

Philosophy Forums Society, Government, and Economics
1

Nothing good can ever come out of senseless death, like the racist, hateful killings of 9 peaceful churchgoing Americans by the pathetic, racist gunman in Charleston last week. However, good can grow from such atrocities, and some has. After 50+ shameful years of flying on Southern state state houses and being waved about by racist–yes, racist–yahoos, our Country and culture has finally condemned the Confederate flag for the seditious symbol of racist hatred it is. States are taking it down from statehouses, and companies are ceasing to sell and make the loathsome symbol. Now, some deluded and/or dishonest embracers of the flag claim it’s just about their “heritage” and has nothing to do with racism. Here’s why they’re wrong:

  1. The flag was directly created to signify a rebellion against the banning of slavery, and the establishment of a new traitorous government devoted to maintaining slavery and confirming its heinous belief in the inferiority of African Americans.

  2. After the South lost its traitorous and seditious war against America, the flag did not fly in Southern state houses for almost 100 years, until it was re-flown in a direct defiance of African-American civil rights movements and in unison with violent hate groups who also flew their racist flag.

  3. The flag only flew for five years during the South’s shameful treasonous war with America. So, it is not the flag of Southern heritage, which includes African-American heritage. The Southern states had over 100 years of heritage and culture before that terrible war and had the same for 100 years after. So, that confederate flag is a symbol of Southern delusion–not heritage-- as well as of racism and racial violence.

So, nothing will bring those nine poor, peaceful Americans back. However, hopefully they can sleep better knowing the symbol that helped contribute to their death will soon be a distant American memory.

P.s. Some sad Americans like the pathetic internet hate group, Gamergate, are actually embracing the Confederate flag and bemoaning its removal. Luckily, mainstream decent America is fully behind the rejection and erasure of the hateful symbol.

2

It has always been amusing to me how Confederate apologists just flat out deny the fact that the Civil War was obviously and fundamentally about slavery. Fear of the economic loss that would be incurred by those no longer able own and use slaves is ultimately why the south revolted. Racism was second only to economics, since it is practically impossible to have slavery as it existed in the US without institutionalized racism. States’ rights, which are generally among the top reasons given by Confederate apologists for the war, were really pretty far down on list of reasons it was actually fought. That some people attempt to use the Confederate flag as a symbol of states’ rights just shows how little grasp the have of why the war happened. That others use it as a symbol of white supremacy is ironic, given that the Confederacy lost the war. That still others basically just use it to offend and anger people reveals just how childish and literally retarded it is to take pride in such a symbol.

Simply because something is part of one’s heritage doesn’t make it sensible to take pride in. Confederate flag wavers don’t seem to get that.

3

There us limited legitimate use for that flag, at war memorials and in confederate cemeteries (wouldn’t be respectful to fly the US flag over the graves of units that fought under the CS flag). Also it is quite respectable within military reenactment units to be a member of a confederate unit, even a famous one in hippy Oregon. Doesn’t mean you identify with the ideology anymore than reenactors from any other era, such as Medieval or Roman. Your doing it to present a story for others to see, so they can understand.

Likewise, historical buildings of era specific history, such as a building built and used during the civil war, and is now a museum. Likewise, any confederate “national” archives.

Beyond this, I see no more point to flying the Confederate Flag than the old Union Jack or Colonial Colors. Can they have representation at historic sites? Yes, of course. We have in my area British Imperial Generals buried, Colonial British militia, US Soldiers (different eras, each different flag) and confederate soldiers. I see no reason not to stick the appropriate flag. If we have Indian Nation graves identified, we can stick whatever they want there too.

Beyond this respect for history, I seriously don’t know why we even tolerate Confederate Flags in front of state capitals, it doesn’t seem right. Sounds like one flagpole too many.

As to it being your heritage… perhaps. The country did indeed last five years, lots of families bled for it. Your family may be deeply bonded to it. But, like… its the 21st century. Even the European nobility, while being deeply proud of all its historic heraldic symbols, will show only the current crests. The confederacy has been gone for several generations. Put that flag in the corner of your room you keep your historic family heirlooms in, and don’t abuse it as a sign if hate. After all, the population of the Confederacy was majority Black, had the Confederacy won, there wouldn’t of been a long lasting white majority politically for long, if anything, it would of either of kicked all the white people out, or force equality and desegregation much earlier than the Union did. The Confederacy would of turned into a very black oriented nation. Dancing around with that flag dropped over your shoulders while drinking moonshine from your jug, while hitting on your sister does absolutely no service whatsoever to whatever dignity is left in that flag. Time to give it up as a emblem, and marry outside the family for a change.

4

It really is one of those symbolic things that goes much further than the mere symbolism. It seems like a big deal to me that the social tide has changed on this.

5

You must all be very happy then that Google decided to put a block on people searching for “Confederate Flag” in their shopping results without telling anybody.

youtube.com/watch?v=fjd2DcfCkB8

What a great step forward for all of us when we can be protected from symbols of political ideas we disagree with.

Once again we find ourselves in that state where ‘liberty’ apparently means you have to justify yourself to people who disapprove in order for your actions to be allowed.

6

You think the Confederate flag should fly in front of the United States South Carolina State House?

What I meant was that the taking down of the flag in many places is a symbolic event that is big deal.

7

If the people of South Carolina want it to, absolutely.

But symbolic of what? Are the flags coming down because the people who fly them have had some revelation about race relations, or are they coming down because the people that fly them have been bullied and harassed by outside influences?

There’s a difference between people changing what they express because they’ve had a change of heart, and changing what they express because they are afraid of the consequences of expressing themselves.

8

Yeah, that Google thing is weird. If it’s true, the programmers should at least code a notification about not serving requests for Confederate flag merchandise. That would seem to be the fair thing to do.

So no, we needn’t all be very happy about so and so or such and such.

Well I asked you. But anyway, do you think the majority in SC feel it should still stand?

The funny thing is that in my experience people who wear and wave the Confederate flag aren’t usually the ones being picked on. And now the flag’s symbolism has come into open question/criticism and people/companies are taking it down which is their prerogative. Yes, it’s kind of icky for Google to misrepresent its online shopping results and I’m sure people flying the Confederate flag are going to have to endure some harsh glares…

9

It’s true. I just tried it and you can too in like five seconds. Type ‘confederate flag’ into Google and look for shopping results. Then type ‘flag confederate’ in and do the search again. Then, just for fun, do a search for Nazi flag or Isis Flag, and see all the results you get.

Google is restricting search results on the basis of Google’s political beliefs.

such and such.

I'm sure they probably do in a passive way, because in cases like this the 'leave people alone' and pro-free speech elements are always the quiet majority.  Debates of this nature are always between the irritable busybodies who want to change how other people live, and the folks patient/contrarian enough to bother speaking to them. 
Put another way, do you really think the majority in SC gives a shit one way or the other?

Yeah dude, if people call you a terrible human being, refuse to do business with you, write articles about you in the paper and try to get you fired because you fly the Confederate flag, and you decide to take it down, why that’s just your perogative!
So anyway, like I asked: given things like Google and the criticism and the harsh glares, what do you think the flag coming down in so many places is an event symbolic of?

10

People want to take a pro-slavery, secessionist flag down from US government places. The flag may represent other things, but it certainly represents those things also.

The rest is just your own straw men. That’s the way you entered the thread as well.
As to your question, I think it symbolizes a lack of tolerance.

11

Apparently Google had already announced a change in its Shopping policies. This was in several news articles from 6/23 I just found:
reuters.com/article/2015/06/ … JE20150623
recode.net/2015/06/23/google-sho … azon-ebay/
huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/2 … 49306.html

So this was never exactly true since Google made a statement to the press, in effect telling quite a lot of people.

12

And in contrast the North was to pursue a policy of banning all blacks from the expansion West. Lincoln himself, far from a natural emancipator, wanted to ship them all back to Africa.
So you had a choice between the South: business as usual, or the North: “Whites Only” policy.

In the end the North thought it more expedient to use freed slaves to fight their war for them making re-patriation less viable morally.
After the war, Lincoln was forced to U-turn and free the slaves, against his will.

13

As for the flag,
You can buy one here for £7.99

theflagshop.co.uk/confederate-flag-525-p.asp

Linked from Google.

You can even get the German WW2 national flag, here.

warstore.co.uk/german-ww2-re … 1493-p.asp

A bargain at £5

The trouble with banning the sale of flags- What the hell do I do when I want to BURN ONE?

14

The US government is more than willing to sell US flags for burnings, with a hefty VAT included. We are more than willing to financially exploit that sentiment, 100% of the proceeds go to Police Batons and Riot Gas.

Yes, the Flag needs to come down in front of the actual current government buildings. Its the US, not the CS. We fought a war, US flag only. My exceptions listed above are legit, but not actual government buildings.

Taking Reruns of the Dukes of Hazards off the air was stupid, its a funny TV show. Likewise, autobiographies and biographies of Confederate Generals like Robert E. Lee is valued. Best of luck getting West Point and Virginia Military Institute to get rid of such works on the curriculum. I’m strongly Pro-Union, fought under its flag… but part of the Union ideal was always a cultural openness and acceptance of difference. Should I stop recommending General Rommel’s “Attack!” because he later on became a general of the Nazi Empire, or throw away texts by Chinese Legalist cause they were demented Fascists?

I’ll do no such thing. If you can’t buy a flag, I will teach anyone who requests, how to make a more authentic civil war era confederate flag. This is getting stupid. Someone needs to make certain The Dukes of Hazards is readily available online, legal or not.

15

Humans living in quiet fear, scared what others think about them, anxious and concerned primarily with determining the status quo of the moment and stepping in lock-step with it, with what mainstream political correctness tells them.

Who in their right mind could herald any of this as “progress”? Are you actually insane?

Go read 1984. This is basically your dose of 2 Minute Hate: completely obvious and reactionary emotional and ideological manipulation. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

16

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhoVERNUSAE[/youtube]

Look now I’ll talk slow sos you can understand me.

Large fries.

Pie.

Large coffee.

Prronto.

Got me good buddy?

17 
Right. Google is artifically modifying their search results to hide things because of their political views, and you can't watch the Dukes of Hazzard on T.V. anymore, and the Apple store pulled a video games about the Civil War (then added them back after public outrage) because some perfectly reasonable people want the flag down from US Government places.  Why do you even say stuff like that?

Yeah, Google announced their intention to undermine their credibility and maniuplate people’s search results a day or two before they did it. That doesn’t make it any better at all. I was wrong about the ‘didn’t tell anybody’ bit for sure, but why fixate on that as if it’s the real problem, and as if you wouldn’ defend it anyway?

18

Uccisore,

I believe an earlier post of mine was edited by someone else and now the context of that post is more obscure because of it.

Your last quotation of me was my response to a particular statement of yours which I very clearly remember quoting in my post.
Here is what I had posted:

People want to take a pro-slavery, secessionist flag down from US government places. The flag may represent other things, but it certainly represents those things also.

Maybe you know how my post could have been edited?

19

This is excessively snide as was your false opening assumption in this thread.

I will explain my thought process about the Google thing, but I am frankly tired of talking to you so after this I am done.

The most salient point of the video you linked, and what I had the most trouble believing, was that Google would do this secretly as disinformation. When I questioned the truth of the Google case, it was because the entire scenario struck me as weird. I don’t consider it a fixation to point out an inaccuracy of the case you presented. In fact, I don’t think a press statement was enough on Google’s part. I do think there should be an information notice displayed in the search results for anyone who goes to search Google Shopping for a Confederate flag. At least in the short term. As to modifying search results in general, I think there can be good or acceptable reasons for it (e.g. revenge porn), and I don’t think there would have been anything heinous about Google deciding not to support the sale of Confederate flags on their platform. It might be inconsistent on their part, they may have implemented a sloppy filter, but the only thing that could approach “sinister” is if Google was deliberately carrying out a disinformation campaign, for which the “evidence” is very slight at this point.

20

Of course the North wasn’t comprised of saints, but you’re still manufacturing a false equivalence, one the American slaves would definitely find abhorrent. Also, you seem like a reasonable person, so you must know referring to the systematic enslavement, rape, torture, and murder of African-American slaves as just 'business as usual" is a gross amelioration. It was the continuation of that enslavement, rape, torture and murder. As terrible as “Whites Only” is, I think African-American slaves would have preferred that to the nightmare they faced in the south.

And none of that changes the fact that the South did commit treason and sedition by taking up arms against the federal government instead of giving up their horrific tradition of slavery. And nothing changes the fact that the end of the war did bring the end of slavery, which was miraculous to African Americans. And at least we agree the flag is nothing more than a symbol of a treasonous lost war fought to maintain human enslavement, as well as a symbol of White rejection of Black civil rights. Like the Nazi swastika, it is truly a loathsome symbol.

And people thinking the majority has the right to fly it, they don’t. The majority didin’t get to decide against slavery and segregation; they certainly don’t get to decude on flying the symbol at a government state house. The majority doesn’t run this country; the Constitution does.