Goodbye...

[Phaedrus]

I can still remember the last time I spoke to him, although at the time I never dreamt it would be the last time. A guy I’ve considered a friend of many years just killed himself tonight. Even though I knew he’d been pretty down for a while, I was still blindsided.

When I moved to this city in the early to mid nineties, he was one of the first friends I made. Although he was affable and outgoing, he was always was a bit moody, and unfortunately he had many demons, most of them 80 proof. Over the years the booze took a heavy toll on his physical and emotional health. Around six months ago he quit abruptly and devoted himself to drinking full time. Eventually it landed him in the hospital for a week. The episode really shook him up, and when we last spoke he’d quit the booze and was even talking about rehab. Sadly, I can only surmise that it didn’t take.

I feel bad right now…bad for him, as a reflex, although I know I shouldn’t. After all “death harms no one”, does it? His pain is over now. I feel bad for all his friends, and sorry that he either didn’t know he had so many or that in the end it wasn’t enough. And I wonder at the nature of our friendship. If I’d have had any idea I certainly could’ve called him, and I will always wonder, would it have made any difference? Or would it just have happened some other night when he was all alone and fresh out of reasons to go on?

So here I am at 4:00 a.m., alone with my thoughts. And I’m not really sure what to make of them. I feel bad, but probably not nearly as bad as I should, which makes me feel worse. A mutual friend called my cell ten minutes ago- I know should have answered, because I could hear in his voice in the message that he’s pretty shook up, but selfishly I just didn’t feel like talking about it right now. And that doesn’ make me feel any better, either.

Tonight sucks. And tomorrow will probably be worse.

[Kriswest]

Some of us sadly have been where you are now. A step Aunt that I cared for very much killed herself last year. She had been going to therapists for years, she had tried suicide 10 times before over the past 20 some yrs. She was on medication. She finally did it. We all knew about this, at some time or another we had been there for her. No one was there for her the last time.
It hurts like hell my friend but, no matter how many times, how how hard we work to save someone, they have to save themselves before anyone can help them. Some of us just can’t make it, and it is not their fault, it is not yours or mine, it just is. Your reaction to this is fine, you were his friend, that was a good thing for both. My condolences on your pain.

[Tab]

Wise words Kris. I hope your pain passes quickly Phaedrus, sorry for your loss.

[Peter_Kropotkin]

I too am sorry for your loss.
A good friend killed himself in high school because
his parent or her parents forbid them from seeing each
other. It was the dumbest thing for both sides.
It was almost 30 years ago now. The pain went away
many, many years ago. Now I just wonder in sadness.
Time does heal every single wound. Sometimes, the pain
seems so great as to not be possible, but trust me,
time will heal you.

Kropotkin

[Bessy]

I just saw this, and I am so sorry for your loss, Phaedrus.

[Fabiano]

Sometimes

the help of friends
the hope for a better day
the craving for inner and outer peace
the things you could buy
the places you visited and wanted to visit
the things which you haven`t still experienced
the people which were once important to you

all this stuff
is just not enough
to deal with the pain
the suicidal knows his mind
he and only he knows the size of his pain
nobody can judge or lament or blame him
he destroyed the only things which belonged to him
his life
and his pain.

I prefer to feel sorry for whom is still alive. Now the pain is only theirs.

Not meant to offend you, Phaedrus.

[Phaedrus]

Bad poetry doesn’t necessarily offend me, Fabiano. And I’m the last guy on Earth who’d contest a persons right to end their life if they choose. I heartily agree with Schopenhauer when he says that for society to ask me to live on as a machine for others to use when I no longer wish to live for myself is an extravagent expectation. Certainly he knew his pain.

Still, there are two main catagories of suicides, and bear in mind this is only my view. There are rational suicide and irrational ones. An example of the former is a person with a terminal disease faced with a lingering and horribly painful death. When the agony is balanced against the likelihood of an 11th hour miracle, suicide might be the logical option. An irrational reason (again, IMOHO) is a teenager dumped by another teenager. Yes, it hurts, but chances are that given a few weeks, months or years the pain will be completely forgotten. Another example is someone not in their right mind (eg on drugs, suffering from severe clinical depression).

So while I acknowledge my friends right to end his own life, I think I’m within my right to miss him and lament that he didn’t try something different. If for no other reason, at least for the family he left behind. He did have a good relationship with them. He had problems, most of them linked to substance abuse and clinical depression. Both of these are stubborn demons, to be sure, but treatable with help. Ultimately the choice was his and he made it, but it’s a shame I think.

[Phaedrus]

Part II.- I went to his funeral today and was well and truly pissed at the service. Even though he wasn’t at all religious, the pastor giving the service took the opportunity to deliver a fire and brimstone sermon warning us “sinners” about the fires of hell, etc. Just as it’s scandalous to take advantage of victims of a natural disaster, it’s nauseating to see a mans death uses as a flimsy excuse to shill your silly superstition.

Note to self- when I write my will, remind to insist that any fucker quoting scripture or using the words “God” or “Jesus” at my funeral gets bounced out on their sorry, superstitious ass. I have no use for such fucking silliness and I don’t wish to see my death used to advance a type of stupidity I couldn’t stand while I was alive.

If people need a reading, let it be Schopenhauer, Nietzsche’s “Essays and Aphorisms” or something from Bertrand Russell’s “Why I Am Not A Christian”. Cap it off with selected disses of religion from Jefferson, then burn and bury me.

[Dan1 (Dan~)]

@Phaedrus

I feel bad right now…bad for him, as a reflex, although I know I shouldn’t. After all “death harms no one”, does it?

Yes, being dead is the most painless state imaginable. There is no feeling at all once one is dead.

But what is the meaning of pain?, if emotion is information?
Loss is the information and the logic of pain. Death is a loss.

So here I am at 4:00 a.m., alone with my thoughts. And I’m not really sure what to make of them. I feel bad, but probably not nearly as bad as I should, which makes me feel worse.

You “should” feel bad? Why? What does that do?
What kind of dogma/cultural-error is this?
Your stress and pain, no matter how much you mannage to synthesize, will only make the problem more harmful then it originally was.
I believe in anti-pity, and for good reason.

You don’t have to feel bad at all.

A mutual friend called my cell ten minutes ago- I know should have answered, because I could hear in his voice in the message that he’s pretty shook up, but selfishly I just didn’t feel like talking about it right now. And that doesn’ make me feel any better, either.

Tonight sucks. And tomorrow will probably be worse.

Silance is a bitch… When you can, talk to your friends. I would suggest: Tell them everything you said here and more.

From what I’ve seen, mental and emotional sharing are almost always healthy/good.

[Dan1 (Dan~)]

@Fabiano

Sometimes

the help of friends
the hope for a better day
the craving for inner and outer peace
the things you could buy
the places you visited and wanted to visit
the things which you haven`t still experienced
the people which were once important to you

all this stuff
is just not enough
to deal with the pain
the suicidal knows his mind
he and only he knows the size of his pain
nobody can judge or lament or blame him
he destroyed the only things which belonged to him
his life
and his pain.

I prefer to feel sorry for whom is still alive. Now the pain is only theirs.

Not meant to offend you, Phaedrus.

But what happens when someone gets to a level in which they stop believing in, or caring about passed and future pain?

[Phaedrus]

@Dan~

You “should” feel bad? Why? What does that do?
What kind of dogma/cultural-error is this?
Your stress and pain, no matter how much you mannage to synthesize, will only make the problem more harmful then it originally was.
I believe in anti-pity, and for good reason.

You don’t have to feel bad at all.

Okay, let’s say your mother is raped for hours and then executed. Certainly, assuming you loved your mother and had a decent relationship with her, society would say you should feel bad. And, again assuming you were emotionally programmed roughly similarly to most other humans, you would feel bad.

But what if you did’t? Certainly there’d be feelings of guilt running thru your mind. And what would be wrong with that? What point is there telling anyone what they should or shouldn’t feel? You may as well tell a person not to be affected by gravity as tell them not to feel an emotion they’re feeling.

That’s why say “Just cheer up” to someone that’s depressed, for instance, isn’t necessarily effective.

In another thread elsewhere, the value of compassion was debated. I fell into the camp that thinks compassion is one of the defining elements of human beings. In that same vein, it’s hard to me to see someone I called “friend” get to the point where death was preferrable to going on living. He didn’t get the full measure of life he could’ve had, and as a compassionate human, that bothers me. And while he wasn’t “my responsibility,” I can’t help wondering on some level if there’s something I could have done that I didn’t.

[Dan1 (Dan~)]

@Phaedrus

Part II.- I went to his funeral today and was well and truly pissed at the service. Even though he wasn’t at all religious, the pastor giving the service took the opportunity to deliver a fire and brimstone sermon warning us “sinners” about the fires of hell, etc. Just as it’s scandalous to take advantage of victims of a natural disaster, it’s nauseating to see a mans death uses as a flimsy excuse to shill your silly superstition.

You know, if someone used that state of weakness in a small crowd to spread fear based propaganda and obediance… I’d speek up!
I’d say:
“Shut the fuck up! Hell doesn’t exist and immortal souls can’t even be hurt by temperature changes. You fag. Go fuck yourself!”
[runs away]

And then everybody gets mad at the one who stands out like shit, instead of the liers… Yah, it’s politically incorrect, but I’d say it [if people couldn’t hurt me for it much].

Note to self- when I write my will, remind to insist that any fucker quoting scripture or using the words “God” or “Jesus” at my funeral gets bounced out on their sorry, superstitious ass. I have no use for such fucking silliness and I don’t wish to see my death used to advance a type of stupidity I couldn’t stand while I was alive.

Yes, well, I’d guess that your losses at death would be far far greater then the small issues of preachers and pig shit at your one day croak and moan.
Stay healthy, homez.

If people need a reading, let it be Schopenhauer, Nietzsche’s “Essays and Aphorisms” or something from Bertrand Russell’s “Why I Am Not A Christian”. Cap it off with selected disses of religion from Jefferson, then burn and bury me.

An alternative would be to sign up for cryonics. Your life insurance moneys could gover the cost of preservation of your good old brain.
alcor.org/SuspFunding/index.html
With this molecularily in tact, using new iceless freezing technology, instead of absolute death the person has a prepetual dice roll of chance at resurection technology some time in the future.

[Phaedrus]

I’m not betting the farm on cryonics, but what the hell. What do we have to lose, just an eternity of nonexistence?

Certainly I won’t be bothered once I’m dead, but since I’m alive now I hope that those that outlive me have a good life in the time they’re allotted. And I personally think religion is a threat to that. So inasmuch as I can do anything about it, my compassion dictates that I try to make those arrangements.

[Dan1 (Dan~)]

@Phaedrus

@Dan~

You “should” feel bad? Why? What does that do?
What kind of dogma/cultural-error is this?
Your stress and pain, no matter how much you mannage to synthesize, will only make the problem more harmful then it originally was.
I believe in anti-pity, and for good reason.

You don’t have to feel bad at all.

Okay, let’s say your mother is raped for hours and then executed. Certainly, assuming you loved your mother and had a decent relationship with her, society would say you should feel bad. And, again assuming you were emotionally programmed roughly similarly to most other humans, you would feel bad.

Which is illogical and harmful, but human nature it is, and I’m not immune. All I can do is realize how wrong it is to feel bad about things, and then try to minimize the amount of mental energy is routed into damaging my own bodies heart.

But what if you did’t? Certainly there’d be feelings of guilt running thru your mind. And what would be wrong with that? What point is there telling anyone what they should or shouldn’t feel? You may as well tell a person not to be affected by gravity as tell them not to feel an emotion they’re feeling.

I well know how useless it is to say that.

That’s why say “Just cheer up” to someone that’s depressed, for instance, isn’t necessarily effective.

I know. Maybe I should say nothing?

In another thread elsewhere, the value of compassion was debated.

Logical compassion, such as the kind practiced by a doctor.
When he stitches up some guy, instead of crying over the person, he just does his job and tries to help, without the useless and painful emotion.

I fell into the camp that thinks compassion is one of the defining elements of human beings.

Compassion is just understanding. It’s allot like friendship. We understand the pain that we see in others, but the problem of pity lies in the actuation of the process of suffering within the mind.
From knowing, to imagining and feeling and placing self within.
I still think that compassion is good; it is a form of wisdom, that people should try not to get emotionally imbalanced about.

In that same vein, it’s hard to me to see someone I called “friend” get to the point where death was preferrable to going on living. He didn’t get the full measure of life he could’ve had, and as a compassionate human, that bothers me. And while he wasn’t “my responsibility,” I can’t help wondering on some level if there’s something I could have done that I didn’t.

Well, feeling bad about it is just a form of stress that spawns reactive action, but I believe in preventative medicine.

Being human is as dumb as fuck because you have to be hit by things before you react, but that’s how evolution always was. It was oxymoronic and not really premeditated.

Being constructive and positive probably helps depressed people, but that’s about it. I knew a girly online who was suicidal… she was talkin some bad shit and it’s been a long time now since I’ve talked to her.

I did what I could at the time, and that’s all.
I cared, and sadness/pity didn’t destract me either, but I’m very limited and she had a shitty life situation…

What ever, I tried, and that’s good enough. Everything can go fuck itself.

[Dan1 (Dan~)]

@Phaedrus

I’m not betting the farm on cryonics, but what the hell. What do we have to lose, just an eternity of nonexistence?

Certainly I won’t be bothered once I’m dead, but since I’m alive now I hope that those that outlive me have a good life in the time they’re allotted. And I personally think religion is a threat to that. So inasmuch as I can do anything about it, my compassion dictates that I try to make those arrangements.

If I could, I’d get me & my family cryogenically preserved, because then there would be odds of getting a robot body and some fly shit like that.

My meaning in life changed allot. I usedto believe in worshiping God and trying to maintain a set of morals in hopes of saving my soul.

Now I want to survive long enough, so that my odds of seeing or gaining post-human upgrades is increased. All possible, personal problems can eventually be cured with enough time, but old age fucks the wisdom and experience out of society.

Eternal life → unlost progress of the individual → society made of individuals → new form of individualized revolution of society, bring a new wave of reason and wisdom to replace the previous pleage of ignorance.

Even if the deal for the cure for aging – was the removal of reproductive ability/systems, I’d be willing to trade it all off.

I need to be around forever, so that I can do what I want, and disprove people who are wrong about stuff. [outlive those damned critics]

[Phaedrus]

Yes, I too would much prefer to live for ever than to reproduce. Immortality would suit me just fine.

[Dan1 (Dan~)]

@Phaedrus

Yes, I too would much prefer to live for ever than to reproduce. Immortality would suit me just fine.

Thanks mang, I really like it when people agree with things like that^

Humans are in prepetual cycles of re-learning, and never have they had ancient-super-wisdom. If we compare a [theoretical] thousand year old professor to a 50 year old professor [who spend 20 of those years on child hood stuff], we may be able to fathom how damned stupid we all are…

But we are really smart when we compare ourselves with lessers… [ex: dogs & birds?]

[Fabiano]

I’m within my right to miss him and lament that he didn’t try something different.

it’s not that he DIDN’T.

It’s that he COULDN’T.

so many years of Philosophy and you haven’t yet learned that?

One could never, never really know what goes through the mind of a man. How many of us live in a state of death before dying? How many people are already dead out there, just waiting to be buried, when someone realizes that? I guess many, indeed many.

A man who has realized that his pain and his inner vacuum can’t be dealt with, a man who has finally realized that THERE IS NO WAY OUT, and that has assumed that to himself, will have only two options: insanity or suicide.

To continue living “normally” is just to postpone what will happen sooner or later, one way or another, to postpone the pronouciation of a sentence which you can pronounce alone…

[Phaedrus]

Um, how many years of philosophy do you think I have under my belt, Fabio? And why would the number matter? As a civilization we have thousands of years of it and it’s availed us nothing.

Who’s to say he “couldn’t”? Perhaps you think because he “didn’t” there was no other option. But I’m not into predestination. What you did this time may not be what you’ll do next time.

At any rate, I don’t think you really get it. Life is suicide, just the slow way. You present a false dichotomy- there are more choices than you understand. Maybe when you’re older. Maybe not.[/i]

[Dr.Satanical]

One of my favorite philosophers, Albert Camus, has a thing or two two say about suicide in his essay, ‘an absurd reasooning’ in a work of collected essays published under the name ‘The myth of Sisyphus, and other essays’
I highly recomend it to the OP.

edit - I found it posted online HERE