Grace

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
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Sorry I don’t have time to post something longer Felix.

Your view of Jesus appears to be largely deduced from the gospels, right?

So, what do you make of the Jesus presented to us in the book of Revelation? Do you just ignore it?

In Revelation Jesus is the ultimate judge of every man and will clearly condemn people (also confirmed in the gospels by the way). Plus, we’re told that he will come again to actively fight against those who continue to rebel against God. We’re told that he has a sword, an army, and will kill people.

Even if you see these as figurative (which I don’t), it’s quite a contrast to the image of Jesus that you’ve presented here. How do you explain this?

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Hi Ned,
just as a support for Felix …

Revelations has been interpreted in so many ways, and 666 has been the number for anybody from Nero, Hitler or even Paul of Tarsus that it makes me wonder why someone should orientate their lives on something so speculative.

You know what self-fulfilling prophecies are and I am convinced that with regard to Revelations there are many so-called Christians who are all fulfilling their sick prophecies in part themselves, or at least enabling things written in Revelations to come true, all the time making themselves into utilities for “evil”, rejecting the Love-Gospel of Christ and forming the body of something that could earn the name “Anti-Christ”.

It is very disconcerting that Christians fail to see this discrepancy and the hypocrisy that accompanies it.

Shalom

23

The gospels are based on historical events. The author of Revelation plainly states that the work is based on a vision. The language is clearly figurative, allegorical and archetypal. The sword is the sword of the spirit which is the word of truth. The “events” of Revelation correlate with the “spiritual warfare” alluded to in the Pauline epistles. Christ is seen “doing battle” in order to transform the world into a new cosmos wherein everything is unified and “God is all in all.”

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I’m not sure where you’re going with this point. The bible contains stories, history, songs, poems, letters, and visions. So what? Are you saying that Revelation is less divinely inspired than the gospels?

I agree with you, but the images certainly mean something don’t they? Irrespective of whether these events will occur, when they will occur, and why they would occur, the images tell us something about God, right? They are in the bible after all! So, let’s take a look at some of these images…

Revelation 6
15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

We might argue about if, when, and how, this vision will occur. But it seems obvious that we are supposed to understand Jesus as someone who will bring wrath, and someone who men would fear? No? What are these verses doing in our bible?

Revelation 9
20The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

We’re told that God eventually judges mankind and kills large numbers of them because of their sin. I’m not sure it makes any difference if this will be real event or is an image, since the writer is comfortable with a God who kills many, many people. And this is in YOUR New Testament Right?

Revelation 19
11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great.”

What the heck is this all about? You’d be hard pressed to make the case that this is NOT Jesus the author is describing. Why is he “making war”? Obviously the image is supposed to make the reader afraid of the rider, after all the words “war”, “blood”, “armies”, sharp sword", “strike down”, “fury”, and “wrath”, are all mentioned aside from the idea of mass killing. Again, why is this image in our bible? What is it telling us about God and Jesus. Irrespective of how you interpret this vision, we have to deal with the idea that this is definitely NOT gentle Jesus meek and mild here.

Revelation 20
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This one seems pretty obvious to me. We will all be judged. And it wont go very well for many of us.

What do you make of these “images” in our bible Felix? Don’t they make you question the idea that God does nothing but love everyone all the time?

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Hi Bob,

It seems to me that grace is in knowing what you know, and particularly in knowing what you don’t know, and being in genuine awe of the awareness of the moment. But of course, a heathen couldn’t possibly understand the many hoops one must jump through. Some of us are too simple to dot all the I’s and cross all the T’s.

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Ned,

felix dakat wrote:
The gospels are based on historical events. The author of Revelation plainly states that the work is based on a vision.

Do you think so Ned? What I am saying is that the gospels contain historical material that can be taken literally, and Revelation contains figurativative, visionary, dream-like material that can’t.

Yes they mean something. Perhaps you missed the following from my last post:

“The sword is the sword of the spirit which is the word of truth. The “events” of Revelation correlate with the “spiritual warfare” alluded to in the Pauline epistles. Christ is seen “doing battle” in order to transform the world into a new cosmos wherein everything is unified and ‘God is all in all.’”

That is not saying that Revelation means nothing is it Ned?

If we did argue about it we would merely be joining the throngs of people who already are. And of course there is the possibility that all those who argue about it including you and I are wrong. But, I think the central message is one of encouragement to Christians. The visions are saying that if the believers in Christ remain faithful, God will bring them safely through all the coming tribulations and trials.

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double post

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Hi JT,

Grace in a Christian context, as I have said to Felix in the past, is the normal gift of God to the world, but we are the ones who spin out, go off course, end up in dead-ends. It is important to realise that we do not have to “earn” grace, but stop preventing it. The whole evangelical discussion about faith or works is a completely false analysis of the situation which assumes (without saying) that faith “earns” the grace of God, not works. But neither “earns” anything. Faith approaches the Holy of Holies, convinced that Jesus was reliable in his witness, and that the love of God goes out to us all. Faith returns to this state of being, looking inwardly to rid itself of anything that could make its trust murky, so that it can shine brightly.

We have discussed in the past that there has been far too much emphasis made on “certainties” and reading the Bible like a lawyer reads the Law. The Bible isn’t a number of clauses within which I can claim my rights, or a timetable for the end of the world, it is a collection of experiences, visions, intuitions and conclusions in allegorical and metaphorical form, which the wise man uses to reflect his own situation. Having been in dialogue with Buddhists recently, there is a common ground accepting all differences, but you won’t find Buddhists contributing to the harm of others.

The case of loving ones enemies, which must be the greatest challenges to all those striving for Armageddon, requires first of all to accept that the enmity could be something that goes out from me as a follower of this Prince of Peace. Therefore, I try to clear that up and live in peace with all around me. I can also ask myself whether my behaviour could be misunderstood, causing enmity. Lastly I ask what in my opposite could cause the enmity and take him out of sync, perhaps unknowingly. Understanding is the greatest step towards overcoming and the task of Prayer and Meditation. Very often it may be our own fear of loosing something (material or immaterial) that causes hostility, which would mean that the concept of owning things is what is between us. You can see how the whole concept of Jesus needs to be brought into view, not just partial aspects.

The cross is something that I can interpret as being done “for me”, something upon which I have to chew like on the unleavened bread of the Eucharist, but which the sap of the vine sweetens and helps me swallow because it is sometimes bitter. Substitutional death is sometimes the only way to remain authentic on the Way, as we see in the example of Christ, but it is an ultimate lesson in spirituality. If I accept this lesson for myself, it is a completely different thing than preaching the end of the world to others. When this truth has edified me, it is light and grace.

I think that these things are sometimes unseen by those searching fiercely, because their attempts are too fierce. A child is more able and must be our teacher in the lessons of grace.

Shalom

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Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.

O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.

Amen.

(St. Francis)

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I’m fine with that. I just thought the tone of your previous posts suggested that the gospels were more important than the rest of the bible.

Again, I agree with that. But part of that “encouragement” is that God will bring judgement on the wicked. This might bring hope to those who are being persecuted or encourage believers to hold fast in face of temptation. Howver, I notice that you’ve once again ignored all the quotes from the bible. What do you make of these images of Jesus and all the judgement that takes place? Do you have any direct comment to make on these passages?

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Is there some overarching reason that all books of the bible must be held as of equal importance? Must every verse or every chapter be held of equal importance? If so, do you actually know anyone who practices this? We could start a thread devoted to what passages each of us find most important. II Timothy 3:16 says that all scripture is God-inspired. It doesn’t state that it is all equally significant.

That said, I do think the book of Revelation is important. The most important thing about it, IMHO, is its concluding vision of unity and peace at the center of a new cosmos (a true universe!) Nevertheless, the messages to the seven churches and the visions of world historic transformation are important as well.

“Judgement” as I see it is related to justice. Every generation longs for justice in the world. The kingdom of God must express justice. Only God possessor of the omni-attributes can bring ultimate justice to all. Revelation is a vision of justice being enacted. The Christ of God is envisioned as a warrior against evil and as the ultimate judge.

However, even today, we can see that destructive consequences that follow from “wickedness.” These follow for believers and non-believers alike. God would not be God if he removed these consequences. Justice does not contradict love. Justice confronts and eliminates what is against love. The believer recognizes and accepts judgement enacted upon her own wickedness as the discipline of her divine parent.

None of this contradicts God’s economy of universal grace. Grace has come to the world in the person of Jesus as the Christ. Grace is available for everyone to participte in. Grace, is a seed. When received, it produces faith. Faith issues in learning of and acceptance of God’s discipline. One who follows that path of faith by grace can become a disciple of God in Christ.

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Bump

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Ned,

I’m sorry that you have not replied to my last post on this thread. I was making an honest effort to respond to the issues you raised. While we plainly disagree, our discussion has clarified the issue for me. For that I thank you.

Your position is probably one that is held by a number of Christians, but I don’t think it is the correct way of interpreting the NT. My perspective is Christocentric and results in a higher conception of God, inner peace, and a pattern of living based on grace and love instead of fear. I believe I am consistent with the Bible, orthodox theology and protestant tradition.

So, if you have forgotten about this thread, I invite you have another go at it. Or have I have so fully persuaded you that you are speechless? :laughing: