just a quick question; let us suppose that god exists, the devil and all that hocus pokus too, would god be the greatest thing that exists? i would think that reality is greater than any of its parts and even the sum of them [as it would include infinity]. if god is that greater reality, then everything must be attributed to god, all good and all evil. the devil himself would be created by or a product of god.
whatever we say god is, there is always the greater reality to which that definition belongs. even if we say god is infinite [an impossible notion], then reality is that plus existence and hence there is a greater reality to which both belong.
ok i wont waffle:
is there always a greater ‘it’ [or definition] than anything we could ascribe to god?
So your saying reality is the greatest?
I dont realy think this post holds any credit. God if he exists is often thought of as the total of everything. Wether or not this included infinity is not impossible, only as impossible as infinity itself. If infinity exists there is nothing to say that God cannot be infinate. If infinity does not exist there is no need for him to be infinate.
Why must reality be greater than God? Cannot God “be” reality?
we can know that god/gods cannot have a direct physical effect on any of existence, so how can they be ‘gods’? we can only say that generally reality is ‘that which moves and is moved by all things’, not that anything is in command.
the writers of the bible and all ancient texts just didn’t see the universe as it really is like we do. because their worldview was so finite they could visualise a creator and it was all very simplified. now though we see a vast universe and speculate the nature of infinity, so it becomes illogical that there was ever a creation at all ~ god or not a god!
reality cannot be defined by any or all of its parts, how can we limit reality to being a male creator and a god. …and a god that doesn’t do anything ~ unless you give reality the quality of creation [without a beginning?]. we do not have any evidence of anything being created we just see transformation. i don’t think the term ‘creation’ means anything but a vague idea based on out of date notions of the real world.
I’m afraid tht nothing you have said here makes sense. Why cannot God “be” infinity? Saying that only infinity can be infinity is pointless. As all we must do is rename infinity with something like oh lets see “GOD” and there you have it. God is infinate. If God is infinate it does not mean that infinity does not exist (and here I am igoring all of the logical paradox’s inherent in infinity just to humour the argument) It means that they are one in the same.
Coming to the further point about How god cannot have a direct effect on existance. I would like to see your logic behind this, as I dont belive there is any.
Ahh so your argument is simply against a human ideal of God that is virtually non-existant even among Christians of this day. Well thats fine. I thought you were making an argument against God.
no, because it would not be a god, it wouldn’t have a single characteristic that we would usually associate with ‘god’.
well if you would like to show some evidence of it then what you say is true, up until then it is a fact that we cannot show how anything is affected from external sources.
it questions both. the bible doesn’t speak of an occult god, it speaks of an anthropomorphic one.
Realy? Like God is everything, that doesnt ring any bells to you. How about, God is everywhere? God knows everything? No? These are not common characteristics?
If God exists, then he is the creator, so surely he has had an effect on everything in the universe there after
Im not a christian, (not in the conventional sense anyway) Though I can see the inconsitancies or wisdom behind the bibles words. When God said that he created man in his immage it can be taken a number of different ways, don’t you think? It could be taken that Man is able to examine the universe as God can, as he is the only (Known) animal that does this.
But if we are to continue you must be clear, are you talking about the biblical God, taken 100% fundamentally the biblical God taken liberally. Or God in the deistic sense of the word. Or indeed any other type of God
i am considering the notion of any kind of god whatsoever…
i see what you are saying but i am sure you would agree these are common vague notions. how can anything ‘be’ everything ~ apart from some vague all round description like reality? how can you have a given thing that is everywhere? ‘things’ or entities of any description are located and defined, there is no thing that is everywhere and everything ~ there are just things.
‘god knows everything’ so does infinite intelligence but we can at least have some manner od description for the latter idea.
sure, i agree, however it is the very principle of creation that i would call into question. it presumes a beginning ~ which gives us the inevitable paradox of ‘what before that’ etc.
the main thrust is that; if we consider any given thing, we can always find something that is greater!
In that case dont use references to the bible to make an argument against God
Immagine God like a bee hive. All the bees are individual, yet they work and act as if they were one organism. Make sense now? God is simply the sum of all parts
Not realy, this is rather an old argument. The answer does not apply to the God I am proposing but I will post it anyway.
If God existed before the creation of the universe, there is no reason to think that the laws that govern our universe were the same or if they even existed at all. Therefore time would not need to be linier.
It does not apply to my argument however because I see God and the creation of existance as the same thing. Happening simultaniously
I think it’s a good question. God is reality, there is none greater. The concept of aseity, meaning that God cannot be conditioned by or dependent upon anything, demands it. God is not “any given thing”. Everything is a being. God is being itself. For any thing to exist, it must participate in being i.e. God. God is present in and encompasses everything. In Him we “live and move and have our being” as Paul of Tarsus said.
[b]Then again, there is such a thing as a difference between metaphysical and natural possibility and necessity in terms of God being “greatest of all” and something being “greater than God”.
That is, the phrase: “God is the greatest thing that exists” depends upon the connotation and conceivable condition of God in relation to the remainder of reality that would qualify the statement as logical.
A schism between metaphysical possibility and necessity and natural necessity in terms of the greatness of God is demonstrated as follows: God could be “greatest” with natural necessity, in the sense that while it is metaphysically possible for there to exist beings greater than God, none happen to exist. Or, it may be a matter of metaphysical necessity that no being can exist with power greater than God, as God controls every “non-God” aspect of reality itself, with no greater being controlling God from “outside”. The latter constricts the bounds of what can be real and what cannot, placing an ontological restriction upon how many layers reality can have. The former does not invoke such restriction, yet claims that God is the “greatest” by sheer coincidence (the coincidence that no being greater than God happens to exist).
One can argue that Existence is greater than God, however, as God (if God exists) is dictated by the happenstance circumstance of how he so happens to exist.
And finally, it is not necessary for God to be “everything”, God can be the “greatest” simply by virtual of ultimate control—in the sense that God controls every other aspect of “non-God” existence without necessarily being an aspect or part of that “other”.
Hope that makes even a little sense (Thought I’d make a sorry attempt at placing an opinion while falling asleep at the keyboard),[/b]
There you go! The reason that you have achieved paradox, is the error inherent within the question/statement above.
Who, exactly, are we to ‘define’ god, from our obviously great perspective and understanding, and then complain that, according to our completely arbitrary and subjective definition/context, we find paradox? God doesn’t behave the way that we think It should…
The error is that there can be no ‘context’ for god/Consciousness. Religiously speaking, giving god any attribute at all in your mind/concepts, is idolatry.
The ‘definition’ that I like best, as far as definitions go is Vedic; god/Truth/“Reality must rigidly adhere to that which is in an unchanging state of universal permanence.” Context is impossible. Context is duality. Context is existence. Context is the ‘creation’ (not Creator)…
“In Silentium, verum…”
I think it’d be greater than God if God and super type of wife person got it on in the best laboratory conditions to make a genetically engineered super enhanced God#2. This was probably not Jesus, though. It may have been Dr.Evil’s Mini-Me type of a deal, instead. Right now God#2 is creating universe#2, which will be faster, bigger, more sexy, and jam packed with the goodness of the lord. He will put advertisements up about how it costs so little to buy a one way ticket to reality#2, but that will be so appealing that people may soon all want to leave God#1 in order to be with the bigger better God#2, so, God#1 has to struggle to keep everyone obediant and whatever else, because now he’s got the problem of Satan and God#2, he’s loosing followers fast. What will he do to stop this?
There’s only one possible answer.
God#1 has to put on a drab orange robe, shave his head balled and let go of all of his egocentric desires, in order to find true contentment and bliss. So, God#1 becomes a buddhist, and realizes his true unconditioned nature of emptiness, awareness and nothingness. Pretty soon he has no karma, and that means no creation/no samsara, too. He’s reached nil, and he can even get along with atheists now, as they both agree his self does not truly exist.
Being greater doesn’t really mean anything other than size and bulky clingy karma nonsense. More commotion distracting one from their original nature. So now that God is free, he does not have to be great or do anything or be anything at all.