Happy new future!

[Historyboy]

@Jacob Burckhardt

Und nun haben wir von der quantitativen ‘Abnahme der Nation’ zu sprechen, einem Faktum, das bisweilen übersehen oder nicht genug betont wird, das aber in erstaunlichem Grade vorhanden war. Fragen wir nach den allgemeinen Tatsachen, die ihr zugrunde liegen, so bietet sich vor allem der von Polyb dafür angeführte Umstand, daß die in Großtuerei, Habsucht und Vergnügungssucht verfallenen Menschen nicht mehr heiraten und, wenn sie es je taten, keine oder höchstens ein oder zwei Kinder haben wollten, um diese in aller Üppigkeit aufziehen und reich zurücklassen zu können; das Unglück sei binnen kurzem unbemerkt so groß geworden, daß der erste beste Krieg oder Krankheitsfall nun gleich das Haus veröde; man sollte also die Sinnesart ändern ‘oder’ durch Gesetze das Aufziehen der erzeugten Kinder befehlen(Polyb XXXVII, 9, 7 ff.). Wir möchten indes bezweifeln, ob damals wirklich noch die Vergnügungssucht die Menschen in diesem Punkte hauptsächlich bestimmte und nicht eher die Desperation, die ja doch ihre Gründe hatte. Die unseligen Eltern wußten in dieser, da Bodenaufteilung und Schuldenerlaß an der Tagesordnung waren, gar zu gut, was der Kinder warten würde; der Polis aber, welche reich zu werden glaubte, wenn sie den Besitzenden das Ihrige nahm, gingen zu spät die Augen darüber auf, daß man auf diese Weise immer ärmer werden, ja daß das Leben zuletzt erlöschen mußte.

Depopulation of Greece
Polyb XXXVII, 9
As I blame those who assign fortune and destiny as the [Note] moving causes in common events and catastrophes, I wish now to enter as minutely on the discussion of this subject as the nature of an historical work will admit. Those things of which it is impossible or difficult for a mere man to ascertain the causes, such as a continuous fall of rains and unseasonable wet, or, on the contrary, droughts and frosts, one may reasonably impute to God and Fortune, in default of any other explanation; and from them come destruction of fruits, as well as long-continued epidemics, and other similar things, of which it is not easy to find the cause. On such matters then, we, in default of a better, follow the prevailing opinions of the multitude, attempting by supplications and sacrifices to appease the wrath of heaven, and sending to ask the gods by what words or actions on our part a change for the better may be brought about, and a respite be obtained for the evils which are afflicting us. But those things, of which it is possible to find the origin and cause of their occurrence, I do not think we should refer to the gods. I mean such a thing as the following. In our time all Greece was visited by a dearth of children and generally a decay of population, owing to which the cities were denuded of inhabitants, and a failure of productiveness resulted, though there were no long-continued wars or serious pestilences among us. If, then, any one had advised our sending to ask the gods in regard to this, what we were to do or say in order to become more numerous and better fill our cities,—would he not have seemed a futile person, when the cause was manifest and the cure in our own hands? For this evil grew upon us rapidly, and without attracting attention, by our men becoming perverted to a passion for show and money and the pleasures of an idle life, and accordingly either not marrying at all, or, if they did marry, refusing to rear the children that were born, or at most one or two out of a great number, for the sake of leaving them well off or bringing them up in extravagant luxury. For when there are only one or two sons, it is evident that, if war or pestilence carries off one, the houses must be left heirless: and, like swarms of bees, little by little the cities become sparsely inhabited and weak. On this subject there is no need to ask the gods how we are to be relieved from such a curse: for any one in the world will tell you that it is by the men themselves if possible changing their objects of ambition; or, if that cannot be done, by passing laws for the preservation of infants. On this subject there is no need of seers or prodigies. And the same holds good of all similar things. But in regard to events of which the causes are impossible or difficult to discover, it is reasonable to feel a difficulty. And in this class may be reckoned the course of Macedonian history. For the Macedonians had enjoyed many important favours at the hands of the Romans, having been as a nation liberated from arbitrary government and imports, and having obtained undisputed freedom in the place of slavery; and having been individually relieved to a great extent from intestine factions and civil bloodshed. . . . They had been worsted by the Romans formerly when fighting on the side of Demetrius [Note] and again on that of Perseus; yet when engaged on the side of a man of odious character, [Note] and in support of his claims to the throne, they displayed great courage and conquered a Roman army. These facts may well seem a puzzle to us, for it is difficult to discover their cause. And accordingly one would be inclined to say in such matters that what had happened was a heaven-sent infatuation, and that the wrath of God had fallen upon the Macedonians. And this will be rendered evident from what remains to be told. . . .

[Mr_Reasonable]

Is this plagiarism?

Do you have any thoughts on what you’ve pasted here?

[Historyboy]

My thoughts have so far always hit on the wall of ignorance and gradually one becomes tired of that job of Sysiphus.

The main problem is, if we want to stop the dying off of the people, we must stop the persecution of the rich people and we must bring people up in a different way, probably creating entire cultures for a new beginning, like Plato tried or like Pythagoras did.

The first citation in German is of a big importance, but only for those who don’t like politicians.

[Mr_Reasonable]

Who’s persecuting the rich?

[Historyboy]

Those who make debts on our account!

[Mr_Reasonable]

Say that another way. I’m not following.

[Historyboy]

This topic is only for those who know German, relax.

[Mr_Reasonable]

I’ve been to germany. And I know a little about Kant and some about Nietzsche. I don’t think you’re going to find that many german speakers here.

[Only_Humean]

@Historyboy

This topic is only for those who know German, relax.

The philosophy forum is an English language forum. If you’re going to complain about your posts hitting a wall of ignorance, you might want to make them intelligible to the audience of the place you choose to post. It’s pretty high-level, archaic German at that.

philosophie-raum.de/ appears to be a German-language philosophy forum, if you’re interested. Otherwise, please provide a translation of the quotations you wish to discuss.

[Mr_Reasonable]

What’s funny to me is that without even speaking German, I can tell this guy is a neocon ayn rand worshipper type. He doesn’t want to state his view an defend it. He wants to find like minded people to exchange the same ideas back and fourth among them. I don’t mean to seem like an ass but I’ve seen out 100 times. Objectivists are almost always cowards hiding things.

[Historyboy]

People who can understand books and philosophers and create their own ideas need not to transport, defend, attack etc. other people. I don’t know who told you to make a market of ideas out of philosophy.

[Mr_Reasonable]

I’m saying I’ve seen all the philosophy schticks enough times to where I can look at the things you’re saying now, and know what kind of things you’re going to be saying in a year assuming you don’t stop talking only to like minded people.

[Historyboy]

That’s called good taste.

[Mr_Reasonable]

What is called good taste? I’ve got long drawn out philosophical arguments about both sides of the debate on taste as well.

[lizbethrose]

I imagine historyboy is chortling in his beer–guys, the second paragraph is a translation from the Swiss/German! I know enough German to recognize that! Happy New Year!