If you agree that people who’s houses are on fire have a right to have it be put out by a tax payed organization, i.e., fire fighters, then why do you stop short of saying that those injured in the fires have a right to get treated by a tax payed organization as well? What are your reasons for thinking that the person with the burning house has a right to have his house put out, and why do you think that the same argument can’t be extended over in support of universal tax payed health care?
I remember when I was growing up, there was a wingnut who always ran for election on the platform that everything should be privatized. He was also proudly behind on his taxes. One day, his house caught fire. The fire department came and made sure the fire didn’t spread to nearby houses. But they wouldn’t put out the fire on his house until he payed them the amount it would cost to put out his house. He refused and they watched his house burn to the ground.
I’m not saying that what the firemen did was right (let alone legal!). But, hey, you get what you give. He toned down his rhetoric significantly after that.
The bottom line on this whole debate is that people who have adequate health care, or at least think they do, don’t give a shit about the people who don’t, and don’t understand the real cost of this (to everyone).
Heck, many people will tell you how this or that benefit of their health insurance is “free”. They don’t understand that their boss includes the cost of that as “employee compensation”. They think it really is free.
If we need social services, maybe we need communism, too?
Free services are the publicly funded [tax funded] services.
It’d be cool to walk into a resteraunt and not have to pay, then eat and leave. At least that seems like a good idea to me, at first. It would require that everyone pay a certain percent more taxes, but so what for them? I want free pizzas.
(edit:
Communism doesn’t mean death and deprivation like in northern korea.
Communism directly equates to free weed, beer and pizza… 
)
Something of a variation of the “chicken in every pot” theme.
Maybe communism has got a bad rap.
That’s fantastic. I lol’d.
Dan, I think that’s a pretty wet slippery slope. The reasons for the firefighter thing can’t be extended to free pizza, but I think they can with injured people.
Faust, I think it’s a majority of people in America who don’t have good healthcare. The reason why we don’t have it is 'cause of the stigma of socialism and people like McCarthy and Limbaugh who gather a following and worship principles at the expense of their wellbeing. I mean, i’ve seen people living in fucking trailer camps railing on about socialism. Made me laugh, and die a little bit on the inside.
I agree - as I alluded to. But they think they do.
So, what is the reason people have the right to have their house fire put out?
Come on…who’s up to it?
“Property is surely a right of mankind as real as liberty. The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.” - John Adams
(I’m only saying…)
My case for socialised health care doesn’t rest upon rights.
But as to houses afire - if you pay taxes for this service, you should get it. That’s just pursuant to a well-oredered society. Whatever you pay for, you should get. And there’s nothing wrong with wanting a good deal. Which is not what we get from the current health care system. By now, everyobody knows that we pay the most, and we do not get the best medicine.
One real problem with tax handled health-care is that you need to be pretty sick to see a specialist, and doctors can be brutally overworked.
Without canada’s health system i’d be fucked but even with it, if I want an mri soon I’d need to demand one or a doctor will rope you around. This strains doctor/patient relationship.
For example I need a special MRI done on my face, doctor “suggested” I get an Xray first, but an xray is useless, it can’t get a full view of the joint, which my doctor admits.
For no other reason but OTHER people need an MRI i’d be told to get a radiation bath on my face for almost no medical value, on the OFF chance it might show something. Now he never told me the xray was near useless till I asked/said it would be, how many patients get needless xrays?
anyway, no system is perfect but at least I could get the MRI for free, fast if I wanted to fight for it. Thankfully I live in Canada, even though its far from perfect.
do we all have a right to force others to go to school for 8 years and learn how to take care of people?
were did freedom of choice go? the mob demands doctor services and YOU have been conscripted to serve the mob…
how social…
-Imp
I agree. Live in a tax supported system. Close relative needed vast medical care very fast, including MRI. This was organized at least as fast as it would have been in my home country, USA. So many things to worry about. So much terror. So little sleep. Not once did I have to worry about whether some insurance company was going to deny us an obvious needed treatment or test. And yet nothing outlandish was done. The MRI was a complete requirement for the upcoming surgery. It is very hard to fight a war on two fronts and we did not have to.
Imp - nothing will prevent you from obtaining medical services privately. Your choice in that will be preserved, and even extended to those who don’t have the freedom to choose medical care at all - much of the middle class and working poor.
I promise.
that isn’t the point
the government says we need doctors. YOU will be a doctor
the government says we need (pick your favorite slave job.) YOU will be a slave.
must be in the 27th amendment that says the right for individuals to choose will be exercised by the congress.
I see dead liberals.
-Imp
Do you really believe that will happen, Imp? Has that happened in any Western country that has socialised medicine?
I can assure you that no one will want me to be a doctor - not even the government. Not once they talk to me for five minutes.
There will always be doctors in other countries who will be happy to move, brush up their English, retake their boards and start slicing. Besides, I see no dearth of people reluctantly sliding into slave jobs. In fact I see more so since deregulation - iow since Reagan/Bushes and even Clinton too gutted any restrictions on corporations.
Police- people line up to compete for this tax paid (SLAVE) job. I have been to the initial testing
Firefighter - tax paid slave job. haha. people in some towns even volunteer to do this job
teacher - Now this is the real slave job. and people still compete for, and to school for 6-7 years, for this job
I would go to Cuba for the free medical education if I knew spanish and didnt want to leave family.
shit make me a doctor beats the hell out of what I do know
Don’t change the subject. If you don’t think people deserve to have their house fires put out, then I don’t really want to hear your argument against health care. My argument is simple, and it ought to be debated only where it’s antecedent (that people deserve to have their house fire put out) is granted. If you don’t think people ought to pay taxes even for that, then that’s a conversation for another topic.
So, do you think it’s alright if people pay taxes to have their or others house fires be put out?
Is this necessarily so? Can’t a tax handled health care system exist without having this problem?