Heavy Petting by Peter Singer

Would you have sex with an animal?

  • yes
  • no
0 voters

— Has anyone read Peter Singer’s new book Heavy Petting in which he supposedly advocates bestiality? I am going to be upset if this turns out to be true, but i know his positions have been exaggerated in the past. I have a few of this ethicists books, his Animal Liberation contained some very lucid arguments and is one of the reasons that i am a vegetarian.

here is one article

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2001/03/08/opinion/2591.shtml

:laughing: I put yes, just for the hell of it! I really wouldn’t but I think the poll needs some balance. :laughing:

I haven’t read anything about such a book, and although I would agree that Singer is quite a strange folk, I doubt that he would truly be behind such a theory. I’ll look into it though.

— The eccentric Peter Singer has definitely been misrepresented in other subjects like abortion and euthenasia (especially in Germany), but usually his views are close to mine, i will have to buy that book and find out for myself before i take anyone else’s word for it.

You beat me to it. Anyway, isn’t Singer rather anti-globalization?

r u implying that someone who’s anti-globalization is likely to be into beastiality, or not…? :confused:

No, I’m not. Singer wrote a book on globalization.

Dearest Pet: On Bestiality by Midas Dekkers, translated by Paul Vincent

Not so long ago, any form of sexuality not leading to the conception of children was seen as, at best, wanton lust, or worse, a perversion. One by one, the taboos have fallen. The idea that it could be wrong to use contraception in order to separate sex from reproduction is now merely quaint. If some religions still teach that masturbation is “self-abuse,” that just shows how out of touch they have become. Sodomy? That’s all part of the joy of sex, recommended for couples seeking erotic variety. In many of the world’s great cities, gays and lesbians can be open about their sexual preferences to an extent unimaginable a century ago. You can even do it in the U.S. Armed Forces, as long as you don’t talk about it. Oral sex? Some objected to President Clinton’ choice of place and partner, and others thought he should have been more honest about what he had done, but no one dared suggest that he was unfit to be President simply because he had taken part in a sexual activity that was, in many jurisdictions, a crime.
But not every taboo has crumbled. Heard anyone chatting at parties lately about how good it is having sex with their dog? Probably not. Sex with animals is still definitely taboo. If Midas Dekkers, author of Dearest Pet, has got it right, this is not because of its rarity. Dekkers, a Dutch biologist and popular naturalist, has assembled a substantial body of evidence to show that humans have often thought of “love for animals” in ways that go beyond a pat and a hug, or a proper concern for the welfare of members of other species. His book has a wide range of illustrations, going back to a Swedish rock drawing from the Bronze Age of a man fucking a large quadruped of indeterminate species. There is a Greek vase from 520 BC showing a male figure having sex with a stag; a seventeenth-century Indian miniature of a deer mounting a woman; an eighteenth-century European engraving of an ecstatic nun coupling with a donkey, while other nuns look on, smiling; a nineteenth-century Persian painting of a soldier, also with a donkey; and, from the same period, a Japanese drawing of a woman enveloped by a giant octopus who appears to be sucking her cunt, as well as caressing her body with its many limbs.
How much of this is fantasy, the King Kong-ish archetypes of an earlier age? In the 1940s, Kinsey asked twenty thousand Americans about their sexual behavior, and found that 8 percent of males and 3.5 percent of females stated that they had, at some time, had a sexual encounter with an animal. Among men living in rural areas, the figure shot up to 50 percent. Dekkers suggests that for young male farm hands, animals provided an outlet for sexual desires that could not be satisfied when girls were less willing to have sex before marriage. Based on twentieth-century court records in Austria where bestiality was regularly prosecuted, rural men are most likely to have vaginal intercourse with cows and calves, less frequently with mares, foals and goats and only rarely with sheep or pigs. They may also take advantage of the sucking reflex of calves to get them to do a blowjob.
Women having sex with bulls or rams, on the other hand, seems to be more a matter of myth than reality. For three-quarters of the women who told Kinsey that they had had sexual contact with an animal, the animal involved was a dog, and actual sexual intercourse was rare. More commonly the woman limited themselves to touching and masturbating the animal, or having their genitals licked by it.
Much depends, of course, on how the notion of a sexual relationship is defined. Zoologist Desmond Morris has carried out research confirming the commonplace observation that girls are far more likely to be attracted to horses than boys, and he has suggested that “sitting with legs astride a rhythmically moving horse undoubtedly has a sexual undertone.” Dekkers agrees, adding that "the horse is the ideal consolation for the great injustice done to girls by nature, of awakening sexually years before the boys in their class, who are still playing with their train sets . . . "
The existence of sexual contact between humans and animals, and the potency of the taboo against it, displays the ambivalence of our relationship with animals. On the one hand, especially in the Judeo-Christian tradition — less so in the East — we have always seen ourselves as distinct from animals, and imagined that a wide, unbridgeable gulf separates us from them. Humans alone are made in the image of God. Only human beings have an immortal soul. In Genesis, God gives humans dominion over the animals. In the Renaissance idea of the Great Chain of Being, humans are halfway between the beasts and the angels. We are spiritual beings as well as physical beings. For Kant, humans have an inherent dignity that makes them ends in themselves, whereas animals are mere means to our ends. Today the language of human rights — rights that we attribute to all human beings but deny to all nonhuman animals — maintains this separation.
On the other hand there are many ways in which we cannot help behaving just as animals do — or mammals, anyway — and sex is one of the most obvious ones. We copulate, as they do. They have penises and vaginas, as we do, and the fact that the vagina of a calf can be sexually satisfying to a man shows how similar these organs are. The taboo on sex with animals may, as I have already suggested, have originated as part of a broader rejection of non-reproductive sex. But the vehemence with which this prohibition continues to be held, its persistence while other non-reproductive sexual acts have become acceptable, suggests that there is another powerful force at work: our desire to differentiate ourselves, erotically and in every other way, from animals.
Almost a century ago, when Freud had just published his groundbreaking Three Essays on Sexuality, the Viennese writer Otto Soyka published a fiery little volume called Beyond the Boundary of Morals. Never widely known, and now entirely forgotten, it was a polemic directed against the prohibition of “unnatural” sex like bestiality, homosexuality, fetishism and other non-reproductive acts. Soyka saw these prohibitions as futile and misguided attempts to limit the inexhaustible variety of human sexual desire. Only bestiality, he argued, should be illegal, and even then, only in so far as it shows cruelty towards an animal. Soyka’s suggestion indicates one good reason why some of the acts described in Dekkers book are clearly wrong, and should remain crimes. Some men use hens as a sexual object, inserting their penis into the cloaca, an all-purpose channel for wastes and for the passage of the egg. This is usually fatal to the hen, and in some cases she will be deliberately decapitated just before ejaculation in order to intensify the convulsions of its sphincter. This is cruelty, clear and simple. (But is it worse for the hen than living for a year or more crowded with four or five other hens in barren wire cage so small that they can never stretch their wings, and then being stuffed into crates to be taken to the slaughterhouse, strung upside down on a conveyor belt and killed? If not, then it is no worse than what egg producers do to their hens all the time.)
But sex with animals does not always involve cruelty. Who has not been at a social occasion disrupted by the household dog gripping the legs of a visitor and vigorously rubbing its penis against them? The host usually discourages such activities, but in private not everyone objects to being used by her or his dog in this way, and occasionally mutually satisfying activities may develop. Soyka would presumably have thought this within the range of human sexual variety.
At a conference on great apes a few years ago, I spoke to a woman who had visited Camp Leakey, a rehabilitation center for captured orangutans in Borneo run by Birute Galdikas, sometimes referred to as “the Jane Goodall of orangutans” and the world’s foremost authority on these great apes. At Camp Leakey, the orangutans are gradually acclimatised to the jungle, and as they get closer to complete independence, they are able to come and go as they please. While walking through the camp with Galdikas, my informant was suddenly seized by a large male orangutan, his intentions made obvious by his erect penis. Fighting off so powerful an animal was not an option, but Galdikas called to her companion not to be concerned, because the orangutan would not harm her, and adding, as further reassurance, that “they have a very small penis.” As it happened, the orangutan lost interest before penetration took place, but the aspect of the story that struck me most forcefully was that in the eyes of someone who has lived much of her life with orangutans, to be seen by one of them as an object of sexual interest is not a cause for shock or horror. The potential violence of the orangutan’s come-on may have been disturbing, but the fact that it was an orangutan making the advances was not. That may be because Galdikas understands very well that we are animals, indeed more specifically, we are great apes. This does not make sex across the species barrier normal, or natural, whatever those much-misused words may mean, but it does imply that it ceases to be an offence to our status and dignity as human beings

Jay-

Thanks for the excerpt. Quite an interesting read.

I have one reservation that I think needs to be mentioned with regards to whether it is right or wrong to have sex with an animal. Simply because an animal seems willing to have sex with a human (as in the case of the dog), how do we know if this is in the best interests of the animal? Dogs also like chocolate, and will devour every last morsel, however we don’t let dogs have chocolate because it will result in their demise. Simply because an animal believes it wants sex with a human does not mean that we as humans should take advantage of what may be an animal’s ignorance. Since we have no way of communicating with an animal, it is therefore impossible to know if infact we are a violating or hurting an animal in some way. If we are to be morally aligned, we cannot even risk being immoral.

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I appreciate your admission and humor, it helps illustrate why such polls are mostly just meaningless nonsense. I am happy to see I’m not the only one not ‘doggy’ styling man’s best friend, unless of course those polles were “balancing” too.[/size] :slight_smile:

— Thanks Jay that was an informative post although I’ve seen most of that information before. I think, for instance, that Singer mentions the ecstatic nun being mounted by the donkey, and the overly exuberant Orangutan. My main concern in addition to the one about ignorance already mentioned, is mutual consent, and whether the animal knows whether or not it will be pleasurable to him/her.
— I take all of the “disinformation” as evidence that this is indeed one of the last taboos in society, i do find it humorous, however.

That post was the article being discussed by all, some of whom may not have seen even some of it before.

My dog may understand it all, may find it pleasureable, may consent, but until she learns better english or I learn better ‘doggie talk’, I’ll never know.

Woof! jay

I watched a porn film called animal farm once, with ironically a farmer and others. :laughing: - There was definately no cruelty! and if i was a lonely man in Siberia with no chance of seeing human kind, well, i might as well. :laughing:

— Good idea Jay, posting the article so those with missing links could read it.
— Animals talk with body language, the tail, etc. Before my dachshund went to weiner heaven (doggone!) i could usually tell what she was thinking, i never made a pass at her though.

Well, for starters I also said yes to the poll. The poll asks whether or not I would have sex with an animal. To be honest with you Peter Singer and I have similar thoughts on Animal rights and what not. So I am going to have to buy his book to see what he says on having sex with an animal. I am intrigued. I would love to take a course from him. I hear when he does lectures he needs a few body guards to help him out with the violence. We have a professor who is equally controversial here in Lethbridge. Dr. Paul Viminitz. Anywho, I cant say that I wouldnt have sex with an animal so I will say yes. For peter singer, he always gets my attention

— Singer’s Animal Liberation is the primary reason i am now a vegetarian.

I am not sure that the philosophy section is ideal for this discussion. Maybe sociology or psychology?

-I have been sexually involved with an animal.

-The images of bestiality described above do not necessarily literally represent what they seem to depict. Japanese images of an octopus are often times a symbolic male, and/or his member, as it is illegal to represent the male anatomy on film or in comicbooks. Other more ancient images may have some alegorical-religious meaning which has little to do with bestiality.

-What is to be gained by focusing the discussion on ethics of bestiality? after all, how often are ethical considerations really significant in decision making? It is easy to imagine that there could be a human and an animal who have an intimate and mutually pleasant sexual life.

-Aside from being unethical, bestiality is illegal and taboo. But even prosecution for bestiality is rare, an AL (Animal-Lover), most likely wants social acceptance, perhaps to open a shop that sells bestiality movies or love toys for animals. At most, for most people, bestiality would be a small paragraph in a sexual chronology of their lives. Including an animal in an otherwise normal sex-act is probably fairly common as animals are all about human’s living spaces. Bestiality is therefore not a major issue.

-It would be interesting to hear a case of someone who is strongly sexually attracted to an animal? A poll: “have you had sex with an animal; please describe” might be more interesting than debate by persons with no experience in the matter?