tragicomic
Now that is the beginning of some very interesting possibilities.
Don’t destroy that by choosing your destiny - be more creative - allow it to simply flow out of you when it has reached its awareness. We don’t choose our destinies - we grow into them.
Arc, God does not place “faith” in man; man places “faith” in God. That is man’s duty to be obedient to God, trust Him for salvation, and then obtain faith. This is a gift of God to those who believe. Unless you believe, you have no understanding. When you say, “you choose your destiny when you reach its awareness”, do you mean, when you realize that God is real and now you have to decide what to do with Him?
Well, if there is Something and man places faith in that Something, wouldn’t you say that there is the possibility that that Something arranged for Man to have some way[s] to come to faith albeit it is Man’s choice to accept it or not.
I’m sort of a free-will kind of person, Selah. Some of us trust in a god, with or without blind faith, some of us trust in something else or in self. If there is a god, for me, it all comes down to the same thing. We just use different words to describe the same thing. As long as we have faith and trust in something which creates wholeness within us and allows us to see life as it IS, well, at least for me, the Something which I would ‘choose’ to intuit would be okay with that.
On the other side of that coin, Selah, there are many who ‘believe’ but do not understand. Their belief stops before understanding. And who is to say that your understanding has more reality within it than one who chooses not to ‘believe’ — in a god that is? I see myself as having received many gifts in my life - they surround me. Must I ‘believe’ in a god before I see them or am grateful for them?
, no I didn’t mean that all. What to do with Him? So, in this case, god becomes the puppet and we the puppeteers? Well, that is certainly the case with many.
Real is a good word to use here though. And if God is the name for that in your life, then that’s it for you.
Paul Tillich said that “The courage to be is rooted in the God who appears when God has disappeared in the anxiety of doubt.” All I meant was that at that point in time, it is a good thing to surrender, let go and just allow what will happen to happen. Let it ferment and brew. Whatever realization eventually comes out of it is and where that leads one, is their destiny. It is a becoming of sorts.
God is just another name for a whole universe of things and we have the right to see and to choose whichever truly works for us which we can relate to (including a relationship with a god) and which fulfills our so-called destiny and contributes to mankind’s, in a positive way that is, if we choose that too.
Not to undermine your position, but becoming an atheist [solely] because of Christianity is like becoming a vegetarian because you don’t like the taste of a McRib.
You seem more opposed to Christianity than the concept of ‘God’ – but, of course, only you would know that. My point is: don’t let one poor representation of a thing sully all others. What is it you sought as a Christian? Perhaps you can continue that search under a paradigm you find more agreeable, or on your own terms altogether.
Anyway, I had a similar stint with Christianity in my younger days, but essentially came to realize I was using religion as a band-aid. I’m not sure I ever actually believed in God, as much as I wanted to. I found the real motivator in my situation wasn’t so much the appeal to God, but the approbation of others who shared my “faith”. In other words, I sought people with answers - and found them. However, I eventually came to find their answers increasingly contradictory and downright perverse at times. By then, even approbation and the support of a congregation couldn’t contain my doubt. I wanted to believe for reasons other than merely wanting to believe, if that makes sense.
That makes sense to me. I wanted to believe because I wanted to know ‘what is the truth’? Don’t look for the truth in yourself, but in the counsel of people who you know to be genuine. Look, no one is perfect. We are all are sinners and make mistakes, that is exactly why you should not put all your trust in man. Is this band-aid to cover up some past hurt to you? If this helps, know this…hurting people hurt people.
Ask God to show you the truth. If you really want to know, He will show you. People will disappoint you and not always have the right answers for you. Look in the right places. Go to the Bible and find out for yourself. But, I can help…been there, done that.
Who are you addressing here? I won’t assume that it is me since I am not an atheist. If you are addressing me, re-read my post. I am not capable of saying that there is no god.
I was addressing the OP.
Even genuine people genuinely hold some pretty absurd beliefs. In any case, I’d recommend the inverse of your suggestion: - begin with yourself, lest your “truth[s]” will always come second hand.
Well, many call that Something God. I’ve become sort of biased against that word. We tend to think that the concept of god explains it all. ‘Something’, for me, leaves veils of unknowing and a much broader landscape to paint on. And I love a mystery.
If I feel a nudge, it might simply be an awareness of the beauty of the moment because of what I see resonating through me - as in a starry indigo night.
I didn’t say ‘did arrange’ – that’s too absolutist for me. I said the ‘possibility of’. Many people might call that ‘some ways’ grace – which is also very mysterious, but does that necessarily speak of the love of a Something – or simply that we can observe a thing, it resonates through us, and we ‘intuitively’ know that it’s good for us and we choose it.
Yes, we see and sense things and then do our damnest to express that through words. But how they do fail.
Why?! On what evidence do you base that? You do realize the pain, chaos and destruction which one’s beliefs in a god has created, right? If there IS a god, I am not saying that that god created it, but one’s beliefs in that god did. Very often one will choose to ‘believe’ in god because they have no belief in their self, they are not capable of affirming their self and they don’t have the will and determination necessary to move on their own. Or at least they do not feel that they do. They leave everything up to god. The ones who are really faithful and love their god, do not blame god when something bad happens though they may believe that nothing bad can happen until it does. The ones who’s belief and faith are weak, will blame god. The healthier, rebellious individuals will then take the time to examine their beliefs.
If everyone who was either agnostic or atheist felt this way, there would be no wholeness or at least striving toward wholeness or completeness or Oneness. It’s a process. That is where the difference lies – right there. Is it your faith in a god which makes you utter those words? To me, life as it is - and as it is it is constantly changing - is creating within- and without - us…as I said, coming to wholeness is a process. But that also is an individual’s perception and what makes it a reality is how we choose to live our life and respond to it, in whatever ways we choose. Life is an ever changing work of art in process. And we do have the ability to erase and begin again as we are re-created from within and without. Be the artist.
Well, then, if that is what gives your life meaning and wholeness, then I guess that’s a good thing. But in which way does Christ do this for you? I mean – for example, by reading Christ’s words in the bible?
We do not need to believe in Christ or god to be or become ethical and moral people. Your moral compass is Christ - mine is my own sense of ‘to do no harm’. I do fall short of this and I still would even if I did believe that Christ was the son of god.
I may be wrong here but I do not think that belief is a matter of understanding. It’s more a matter of taking that giant leap into the darkness, which is NOT understanding. If you UNDERSTAND a thing, wouldn’t you necessarily KNOW IT? And if you know it, you don’t have to believe it. In my book at least, believing is the opposite of knowing. But I may be wrong. I may be missing something here but you’ll have to tell me what it is.
What is the wisdom of God, Selah?
One may come to understanding in many ways, Selah. Through books, pondering the universe (the stars, etc.) nature (nature is an excellent way to gain wisdom and understanding) through listening to other people…ad continuum. And perhaps if there is a god that wisdom may be found in just those places. But wisdom is mostly found when we act upon what we have learned through those things in a positive way.
What we tend to believe or disbelieve may be very real within our own minds but that does not necessarily make them real. The only real things are what actually are – or what IS. Both our beliefs and disbeliefsmay be illusions.
I’m not sure how to answer this question, Selah. But okay, if I came to realize that there actually is something out there…or at least moved much much closer to intuiting that there might be…you see, I cannot come to this realization even though there is physical evidence in the Universe that perhaps there might be Something…but hopefully Something which we haven’t touched on yet…it’s a vicious circle. Anyway, no I wouldn’t humble myself nor would I ask forgiveness. For what? The Something which I would choose to ‘realize’ would by its very nature, at least to me, realize that I was on a journey, following my own path, that I had to make a break away in order to not only see that path but to venture towards it. Would the loving god which I intuit you do believe in, condemn me for that? Aside from that, I am not so sure that my life would change in any way…perhaps what I sense and feel would resonate deeper or become more amplified…it would definitely become more mysterious though. But how could I even know that?
Insofar as consequences go, I am very aware of cause and effect and how my decisions and actions might determine results/conclusions.
…
What I choose IS Life and Freedom although there are times that I might lose sight of this. I do not personally feel that coming to a belief in god would mean that I would always remember to choose Life and Freedom.
The word God to me is really just another word that one uses to express something much larger, deeper and more mysterious than one’s self…something which one must stand in awe of and feels a deep reverence for. For you, that is the Judaic/Christian god and if that helps you to grow in wisdom and in your becoming, that is a wonderful thing – for me, it is the possibility of that mysterious Something which I sometimes intuit as permeating the Universe when I look around me – but it is still just a possibility for me and who knows where it really comes from. …spirit or one’s brain chemicals when they have decided to be still or the illusion which comes over us which our minds have created in response to sensory perception. Perhaps god is simply an ipsundrum but perhaps not. I cannot say either way. But I still do not believe that a belief in god is as important as how we choose to live our lives or is necessary to live them in an ethical moral way. On the contrary, at times that only gets in the way. But that depends on the individual.
Arc:
I appreciate your responses and your questions. You have put lots of thought into this and that is good. God does explain it all, although God is a mystery to those who do not believe.
Words do fail us many times because how can someone express in unsearchable words the reality of regeneration of the spirit of man? It is unexplainable. The Trinity is unexplainable, yet a reality, because the Word of God says so.
If God is our Creator, and He is, then He is all Perfect Knowledge, Truth and Wisdom, far above man and angels [His creation]
Belief in myself? I know who I am and what I am. I have confidence in my abilities only in light of the gifts God has given to me to use them. I have some boldness in speaking to people, but not always the best explanation or descriptive words - perhaps that is not one of my gifts, nevertheless, I want to share what I do know in anyway I can share it. However, you are mistaken to think that believers are not capable of having the “will or determination” to move to do what it takes to live this life. If nothing else, my faith motivates me to press forward toward the mark of the high calling - the prize!
Yes, I leave everything up to God, because it is up to God. Discernment and judgment to make decisions are my part based on what I know and understand concerning God’s instructions and admonitions to me as a believer. I make mistakes. I make wrong decisions sometimes, but hopefully, I learn from them. Shouldn’t everyone?
Bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. Why would that undermine or put into question faith in God? We [humankind] have created our own mess because we rejected God, He did not reject us, that is why Jesus Christ came to make things right for all who trust and believe.
The artist. It is a beautiful thing. I prefer to let God be the artist and I the canvas. I want to be what He wants me to be because He never makes mistakes, and I do. I am happier with the results.
You asked, “how does Christ give meaning and wholeness?” Great question, but you answered it in part anyway. Yes, our instruction and information is in the Holy Bible. Written by men empowered by the Holy Spirit of God to remember what they saw, experienced and heard of God and Jesus Christ. Men don’t understand how the spirit works, but I’ll talk about that more later. We are not a moral people, nor are we good. “All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.”
“Do no harm”, is wonderful, commendable and comforting, because it is a genuine sentiment in your heart and the hearts of many decent people, but, as you honestly admitted, you fall short of this also. We all do and will continue to do so because we struggle with our human nature = sinner. It is what we all are no matter how good we think we are in our own efforts [works].
Take a leap into the light, you are already sitting in darkness if all you have to lean on is yourself with your own thoughts and what you believe is right and good in your own eyes. What is good to God? Only the person and work of Jesus Christ is good and righteous in God the Father’s sight. That’s why we desperately need Him. You began to see that maybe you were missing Something and could not be sure. You asked me to tell you what that is. What you are missing is the Way to know that you CAN have eternal life in the kingdom of God by trusting and believing in Jesus Christ the Son.
“What is the wisdom of God?” Another great question. Read the Book of Proverbs.
The Gospel [good news] is very simple to understand. Man sinned because of pride and disobedience. Christ came to save sinners from the future judgement of a Righteous, Holy God, when the books will be opened and all will be revealed. This judgment must come because sin is unacceptable in the Kingdom of God. You can be saved from this judgment and what the Bible calls “the second death.” You will not be condemned for the path you take for your life unless you reject “…the only God and Savior, through Jesus Christ the LORD.” Jude 25
That is the ONLY unforgiveable sin.
The Freedom you speak of is not really freedom at all. You think it is because you want to be in control of yourself to do and to think as you are driven within our own understanding. Our thoughts are only the beginning of good or evil and when we act on them, it is sin when in violation of God’s pattern for us. As I said before, that is our nature to do those things ‘which seem convenient.’ True freedom is being free from the bondage of your sin and the path that leads to death and destruction. True freedom is knowing you have been forgiven for your sin and you can stand before a Righteous, Holy God without fear. True freedom is knowing that you are loved unconditionally and everything that comes your way, good or bad, is for your ultimate good in order to bring you to a closer relationship with God. True freedom is when you know that you are a sinner and deserve nothing because you understand the Holiness and Goodness of God, yet, in His mercy, Christ died for us sinners, and through His grace are we saved through Faith, not of ourselves, it is a gift of God. True freedom is when you have turned from your sin to God and through the power of the Holy Spirit you know within your spirit, that God IS and He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
The Holy Spirit is a mystery. We don’t know how He works, only that He does. You asked, “where does the spirit come from?” Another great question. Read in the New Testament, the Gospel of John, Chapter 3, Verse 1-21.
I have tried to respond to all of your responses the best I can. I hope I have been able to get you to question further so that we can continue our discussion. I also want you to understand that I am most humble in my responses because God is in control of what can get into your heart. Only His words can pierce the heart and open the mind to know His grace.
1John 5:13-15
Romans 10: 9-13
Please give me time to respond to this. My problem is in knowing how to actually go about it. You and are coming from two different places. But I will respond.
Absolutely, perhaps we should keep our responses shorter and we can discuss this a little at a time. Take your time. I look forward to hearing from you.
Selah…
I am going to try to do the same. As I’ve said, we are coming from different places here. There was a time when I felt and thought pretty much as you did. I was a practicing Catholic even though at the same time, I questioned and doubted many things. On one occasion I lost my faith or my belief in god but it returned more than a few years later. That was pretty traumatic for me. This last time it wasn’t traumatic. I moved away from that path. We’re all on different paths but they all lead up to the top of the mountain. lol. I’m just not sure what’s up there.
How is it that simple, Selah, that in believing one knows? Belief only ‘appears’ to take away the mystery. Our explanations for something don’t necessarily make them real or truth. The nature of belief is that it IS subjective. And, if I ever come to intuit that there is a god, not just that there may be one, there will still be so much mystery surrounding that. How could religion and one’s faith possibly resolve all questions and lead to all knowledge?
Yet you imply that belief in God dissolves mystery. But i may be wrong in this.
I’m not sure what you mean by “the regeneration of the spirit of man”. Spirit is energy and it is always being regenerated or transformed in man. Well, sometimes it does remain stagnant.
See, this is where it becomes difficult for me. Reiterating, I do understand where you are coming from, Selah. Some might say that it was because i had very little faith or trust - perhaps they are correct. So much of how we believe is determined by our personal psychology I believe. We also have questioning, searching minds. But now I do not believe but I do not want to undermine your beliefs nor lead you to question them in a way that might be harmful to you. I’m not trying to be arrogant here either by suggesting that that is possible. At the same time, I do want to address certain things. But how to find that balance?
You made the above statement concerning God but really how can we know this for sure? Many have been taught this, many have come to ‘believe’ this because of their life’s experiences. Many perceive and sensate this because of who they are within. God was a very personal God to me too before and now I am not even sure there is one, let alone one who is personal and loving. But I do realize that religion and belief in god can be important IF those things lead us to a happy productive life and doing good/serving our fellow man. At the same time, it does not take a belief in god to live in that way. What if God is not all of that but rather evolves as we do? Would that be so terrible for us humans if God were not complete as of yet?
But Selah, could you not find another explanation for the above besides the God in your life? I’m not saying you ought to - only that those who are atheists or agnostics are also capable of the same. It’s really just a case of who we turn our power over to/who or what we perceive to be the cause of it.
I am still learning about who I am and what I am.
I don’t really feel that way about every believer - and if that IS what I said or how it came across, I do apologize for that. But there are THOSE believers who do not take responsibility for their lives, - they praise god or they blame god, depending on how things turn out. But Selah, can you also believe that it is YOU Yourself who has the will and determination? It’s just a matter of who we assign responsibility and gratitude to.
Besides your faith, what else do you think motivates you?
Yes, it’s a great thing to learn from our mistakes. What do you mean when you say you leave everything up to God? How do You discern god’s will for you and instruction?
That’s a good question, Selah. It wouldn’t 'have to ’ undermine one’s faith but when that happens, doesn’t it make you question the world a bit, your place in it and god’s place in it? But I do think that it’s a healthy thing to question our beliefs when bad things happen. I’m not saying that it has to lead to losing one’s faith but in my case it made me question just how much control and presence there was of god in my life. And how much of that I wanted to turn over to that god. Everything can become a learning experience, Selah. And when bad things happen, we may be taken far out of our comfort zones and if we aren’t, perhaps that’s the time to begin questioning why not?
That’s your belief, Selah. We can have no knowledge or belief in god and yet do our utmost not to create such a mess. We create that mess because we are human beings and are not perfect and because we come from the animals and haven’t learned to be conscious and aware enough. When I say ‘we’ - I include myself. Do you hear that Uccisore? lol
You can also be the canvas and the artist, Selah. But that’s a nice imagery. I used to love the idea of God being the potter and molding and creating me into something. If there IS a Something to all of this, we can be co-creators. Anything which we hold to be meaningful and beautiful and amazing is capable of molding, re-creating and transforming us…ad continuum.
You would say that all of that comes from God. I might say that all of that comes from the universe and nature - it just IS. We can both be grateful and in awe.
What if I were to tell you that I receive some of my meaning and wholeness and instruction from nature? I do not call or think of nature as God but it IS capable of giving what your God gives. The bible was written by men - yes, they were inspired but whether or not they were inspired by a God or simply by what they sensated/perceived, is a different story. The bible is historical but at the same time it is a story to explain the world. I’m not trying to undermine it.
And Selah, there are also a great many people who try to be moral and good. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are more than two sides to humanity.
I’m quite aware of the darkness that I am capable of sitting in, Selah. Sometimes it’s darker and sometimes there’s a bit of light and sometimes there’s more light. And myself is not all I have to lean on. One can gain insight and wisdom from different places. At the same time, it is not necessarily a foolish thing to lean on one’s self with our own thoughts and what we believe to be right and good. Having faith in one’s Self is not necessarily a negative, Selah. Wouldn’t you say that that extends out from your God?
I’m not quite sure what it is I wrote that implied that, Selah. Yes, I did say that sometimes I may intuit Something - which you call God - at certain moments. I will admit to at times moving closer to realizing the 'possibility’ of that Something. But that’s not belief and I actually choose not to ‘believe’. I am a skeptic and quite frankly, I don’t know what it would take for me to come to intuit a God or to believe. I just have this problem with believing in and talking with something which I can’t know is there. Probably the only thing which would do it for me would be a moment of desperation when I felt the greatest need for a God. But would that even be honest? True, I have had moments when I would have loved to just take that giant leap into the darkness (in a moment of need or loneliness) but I couldn’t because I just can’t know. Call me stubborn. I don’t think that that kind of blind faith would get me anywhere and in the next moment, after the need left me, I would begin questioning and doubting again.
Inspired by a God or by the wisdom of others? Other people may inspire wisdom in us, nature can too as I said. But inspiring wisdom is not the same as using that wisdom. But i have a feeling that your faith does that for you.
Do you believe that all can be saved or only a chosen few? If there is a god, do you believe that only those who believe will go to heaven or wherever or whatever happens afterwards?
Well, that is exercising free choice, Selah. But i do agree with you insofar as we are driven. It’s important to be aware of how we are driven at times so that the choices we do make are made with as much self-awareness as possible. It’s also important to realize that when we think and feel we are doing the will of God, we may be just a bit prejudiced in our thinking and feeling. What does the will of God look like to you? I may have asked this before.
I’ve enjoyed this and look forward to hearing from you, Selah. Thank you.
If I may add a bit to your ongoing conversation, as another former Catholic (who seem to be rather ever-present in such discussions on every forum!)
We should be careful.
Without referencing religion in any way, using only science, we continually discover ever more things that were previously thought to be utterly obvious, but oops, turned out to be utterly wrong. Of course the Earth is flat, any child can see that for themselves. WTF, billions of new galaxies??, and so on.
The question of whether God exists, right or wrong, yes or no, black or white, may itself be fatally flawed, and more a reflection of our dualistic minds than reality.
Reason alone suggests we currently understand only the tiniest fraction of reality. Reason alone suggests we shouldn’t leap from this very small sample size to sweeping conclusions about the nature of everything. Everything is most likely a very big thing, perhaps bigger and more complex than our minds will ever be able to grasp.
Who’s to say that belief doesn’t create a God beyond the mind of the believer, a God that both exists and doesn’t exist, at the same time? Proposing that we somehow know that such a thing isn’t possible is not reason, but rather, just a different faith based religion.
Here we see the Reason Religion at work. The underlying faith based assumption of this religion is that reason is an authority qualified to deliver meaningful answers to such questions. Using only the Reason Religion itself, without need of challenge from any other quarter, we can reasonably ask, where is the evidence to support such an assumption?
I propose that your challenge applies as equally to the Reason Religion as to any other.
If true, then we are left with no authority to work from, and thus no good questions or answers either. All of our knowing swept away.
Now what?
Arcturus, I perceive that you are a kind, gentle person from the way you have responded. You seem to want to know, but have been disappointed and don’t know if you really can be sure of God. I can in some ways relate to that, so maybe I can help. I won’t give up on you and I look forward to our discussion. I have been away, but I will get back to you soon.
Of course, I would like to know if there is a god - wouldn’t anyone who attempts to find truth or a truth? But it isn’t really something that we can ‘know’…only believe. Is it possible that I have difficulty in accepting a belief in god because the possibility or probability of Something (a god) may just be more important to me than I let on - even to myself? So I follow the way of the skeptic which may not at times be more comfortable or lead to such happiness but it’s the only path I can follow for now. And perhaps I will never veer from that path. Am I dissapointed because of this? I never actually thought in terms of that word ‘disappointment’. Do I sense an awareness of a degree of loss in my unknowing at times? Sure I do - sometimes perhaps more than at other times but it doesn’t matter since there are other things in the universe which give meaning to my life. After all, no one can have the whole tomale, can they?
In which ways can you relate to me? And thank you for not wanting to give up on me. But why is that, Selah? I also look forward to our discussion in here. And let’s not forget that the journey is every bit as much important as is the destination. I love to travel! 
I use to never relate fundamentalism to mysticism. But now, after standing back from fundamentalism, I can see that they have mystified Bible verses and are therefore mystics by proxy of book.
V - who are “they”?