Ok so I have to write a paper and need a little help. Here is the question, any help would be great
At 89c in Meno, Meno and Socrates conclude a discussion begun at 87d wih the claim that virtue, because it’s a form of kn owedge, can be taught. Almost mmediatly, though, Socrates raises an ovjection to this claim, reaching a new conclusion- that virtue canno be taught --96d. Froom this it would seem to follow that at least one of the sets of arguemnts leading to these conclusions must contain an error. Is this the case? If so, describe the wrror 9s). If not, indicate what could possibly be going on. Make close an extensive reference to the text in defending your answer.
Man, this philo class sounds lamo… Was the question given like that? The prof coulda added a couple of quotes or something. I mean… fuck.
Anyways… Virtue is knowledge, but knowledge cannot always be taught – as Socrates is pointing out in this instance. Meno can’t figure it out (and evidently you as well ducks), and thus is the reason not everyone can have virtue.
I understand the passage and what is being told here however I was more concerned with the point wher she asks "it would seem to follow that at least one of the sets orf arguemtns leading to these conclusions must contain an error. Is this the case? If not indicate what is going on here.
your right, I misunderstood what was going on there. Do you think you could help me a little more with what you wrote in the first post. I understand what your saying anyway you can go a little deeper for me?
thanks in advance
p.s Old_Gobbo are you a teacher? you seem very smart and eager to help people I really appreciate it. thanks especially
The Meno dialog begins with the discussion of wither or not virtue can be taught. Socrates argues that it’s far more detrimental to decipher what virtue is, as oppose to how people come to posses or know it. However, with the persuasion of Meno they return to the original proposition; can virtue be taught, learned through habituation, or is it innate. Socrates and Meno concluded their initial argument with the decision that because it is a form of knowledge, virtue can be taught. However, Socrates quickly goes against this argument; concluding that virtue cannot in fact be taught. From this it would seem as though one of the arguments contains an error, but this is not the case. Socrates is simply practicing the type of philosophy he is best known for. The idea behind this “elenchus†is for Socrates to have Meno admit to the points that he makes by responding to a series of questions. The answers Meno gives are nothing but affirmations to the ideas Socrates has put forth.
thanks, so this has to be like 1000 words. When you read the question does it seem as though she kinda of wants a summery of what socrates is doing and how he is approaching this argument or what do you think shes looking for?
The top of the assignment sheet says This exercise is fundamentally exegetical; your aim, regardless of the topic you choose is to show me tha you can read carefully and critically. I wll be looking ofr lots of firect, accurate textual references, as well as clear , trenchan arguementation.
I don’t really get whats to argue about.
This whole dialog is socrates basically just steering poor meno in the direction he wants right?
here is the next paragraphy anyone see anything wrong or think i’m not approaching it correctly?
Socrates works his way around the problem of seeking knowledge that is not yet known by borrowing from the way of geometers. He suggests a possible answer to the problem, so they can attempt to tackle the truthful answer without actually knowing it. He asks if virtue is kind of knowledge, then how can it be taught? If one does not agree with this statement then it can’t be taught. “If there is nothing good that knowledge does not encompass†then virtue is a kind of knowledge. Socrates moves back to his original point of good things being used in bad ways, saying that things are only beneficial when accompanied by wisdom, “without understanding they are harmfulâ€. Socrates has lead Meno to the conclusion that because virtue is “something beneficial in the soul†and that which is beneficial is only so in relation to wisdom, one must conclude that “virtue…as a whole or in part is wisdomâ€. Moreover, by taking this view one confirms that virtue is not inborn, and “the good are not so by natureâ€. Taking what Socrates has said in his previous hypothesis Meno comes to the realization that because virtue is knowledge people must come to know it through educators. Socrates has steered poor Meno into a trap here, because by accepting that virtue is knowledge one automatically accepts that their must be those who teach virtue. Since Socrates has never been able to find a teacher, virtue must not be able to be taught.
write out what you think they each say and back it up with lots of specific quotes. tie the quotes together in a way that illustrates what you think they say. according to her instructions, the quotes are the important part of the assignment.
socrates thinks a because of quote 1 quote 2 quote 3
meno thinks b because of quote 4 quote 5 quote 6
quote 1, 2, 3 beats out quote 4, 5, 6 (or whatever you think is the case because of reason f)
document each quote (end notes or footnotes)
as long as your conclusion follows from your quotes/arguments, you should do fine
Here are the last two paragraphs in very raw form, i just started the last one…any idea on how to finish this or a nice conclusion? thanks
Socrates is trying to show Meno that he does not know all which he claims, acquiring this type of self knowledge, in turn opens Meno to the possibility of genuine learning. To confute Meno’s vein conceptions Socrates litters Meno with questions to put him on the defence and frustrate him. Socrates is not immediately disqualifying the belief that virtue is taught “I do not retract the assertion that if virtue is knowledge it may be taught, but I fear I have some reason in doubting weather virtue is knowledgeâ€. Socrates is trying to get Meno to understand that if something is knowledge, then it must be taught. There must have been someone or something along the way that good and virtuous men have learned from, “Anything that is taught, must not have teachers and disciplesâ€? If something as important as virtue is knowledge then surely someone would have met a teacher or such. At this point, the prominent Anytus enters into the conversation as in attempts to discredit Socrates questions of virtue. Socrates continues with the same type of questioning to Anytus, asking him about different disciplines, and their teachers, “if we had not wanted him to be a good cobbler, would we not send him to the cobblers?â€, to which Anytus agrees. After steering Anytus down a series of off beat questions he comes at him with a question about his dear friend Meno’s attempts to become virtuous, “Now to whom should he go in order that he may learn this virtue?†Socrates makes reference to the Sophists infuriating Anytus. “I only hope that no friend or kinsmen or acquaintance of mine, weather citizen or stranger, will ever be so mad as to allow himself, to be corrupted by themâ€. Socrates pretends to be amazed at Anytus’s disapproval here, while he was eventually executed because he was believed to be similar to the Sophists, Socrates disliked them his whole life. He does this to point out that sophists have become famous and been paid numerous sums for many years, and how could this type of error happen? This type of problem would never arise in common trades, so how could it be possible in with a group who claim to teach virtue?
Socrates uses this argument to demonstrate that virtue is in fact knowledge, however knowledge cannot always be taught as he is pointing out in this instance. This Socratic method of inquiry uses dialectical argumentation with both Meno, and Anytus in order to bring out the hidden meaning behind Socrates propositions.
yes, you need a conclusion- proper spacing and run it through grammar and spell check…
it seems a good first draft- fine tune the opening (with a good topic sentence), segment the body (to follow the topic) and a conclusion that shows how the body ties up the point made in the topic sentence. and remember to label/document your quotes
Since you seem to have everything already taken care of, I will suggest only a few points:
Socratic Method: Socrates is famous for this. You are already aware that he’s using it on Nemo …er, Meno. That should be your angle of attack. Start with the method, illustrate (with sources) how he employs it (you must follow Impenitent’s suggestions very closely here), and conclude with it (the method). It should be your thesis statement, in your topic sentences, the body, and your conclusion. Don’t give your teacher any wiggle room. Meno, Anytus, and the Sophists are merely examples. Have fun … if you haven’t already.
thanks very much for the suggestion im just going over it now to try and work that in there, and be sure to talk about that as my angle of attack in the final conclusion. thanks for all your help guys. you guys rock
hmm now who wants to help me come up with an amazing thesis???
how do you guys feel about this as the opening paragraph. should I add anything else?
Plato uses Socrates’ dialog in Meno as a method of discussing weather or not virtue is knowledge, and can thus be taught. Socrates initially decides that it’s far more detrimental to decipher first what virtue is, as oppose to how people come to posses or know it. However, he agrees to tackle Meno’s inquiry of their original proposition; can virtue be taught, learned through habituation, or is it innate. Socrates leads Meno to conclude their initial argument, with the decision that because it’s a form of knowledge, virtue can be taught. Although, Socrates is quick to discredit the argument; concluding that virtue cannot in fact be taught. From this it would seem as though one of the arguments contains an error, but this is not the case. Socrates is simply practicing the type of philosophy he is best known for, the Socratic Method. The idea behind this “elenchus†is for Socrates to have Meno admit to the points that he makes by responding to a series of questions. The answers Meno gives are nothing but affirmations to the ideas Socrates has put forth, and eventually Meno the pupil, comes to the desired knowledge. This dialog is a pose of ignorance from Socrates who knows far more then he leads on.
be sure to use spell/grammar check… I noticed several problems
one thing- your last sentence : “This dialog is a pose of ignorance from Socrates who knows far more then he leads on.”
this is a serious point of contention and scholars debate still if socrates ever actually knew anything. socrates himself was claimed by the oracle at delphi to be the wisest man in greece because he knew that he knew nothing.
it would be better if you said :“This dialog is a pose of ignorance from Socrates who may know far more than he appears to know.”
thanks your amazing. I really appreciate the help. I’ll fix that now. I’m just working on editing the rest and working in all my points so they tie together and I can rap up the conclusion. I will keep you posted if you don’t mind all the questions?? thanks again
I don’t know why I almost burst out in laughter when I read your response regarding that ‘serious point of contention’ and I’m still trying to figure out why.
Hey laith,
Have you thought about approaching this from a seductive standpoint? You know, Socrates the seducer, the snake charmer, luring then lulling the unsuspecting Meno? Try to demonstrate how Socrates is coyly seducing Meno. Don’t force us into the situation, set the stage (remember not to embelish. Stay in context). You could use this technique to appeal to your teacher’s limbic faculties. By the way, this approach can be pretty dicey, but if you can pull it off, you might have an easier time on your future papers.
… and yes, speell cheick and grammer are quite pertinent when writing serious paerpers … save the errors for the forums. Nice thesis statement. Try to tighten it just a little.
It’s how brilliantly you illustrated it, not explained, but, illustrated. Dare I say, it almost had a sophistic feel to it. You captured the underlying irony well.