Historicity of Jesus

Doesn’t conflict bring emotion most of the time? What’s a story without a bit of emotion? Be that fear, love, sadness, excitement and the like. Idea’s exist, just not in physical form.

The question of bad things happening to good people seems long before even Jesus.

No, the other way around: emotion brings conflict, and there is no doubt that both sides were emotional, but that was not the point I was making. You can bring emotion and conflict into fictional characters, but for the purpose of conveying a story. In fiction the author is in complete control, so the emotion and conflict are not the point in themselves but form part of a story. Now, if that story was about the myth of Jesus, the incarnation of God, then the conflicts shown in Galatians and Acts work against the aim of the supposed story. Why would the author do this?
The question about why bad things happen to good people is older, yes. But certainly an author writing fiction could have done better that the convoluted mess that is the NT. And again we go back to the NT and have to ask why so many Gospels? Why so diverse? As diverse as they are, with the Gospel of John and others showing excellent structure around the mythological aspects, nonetheless all include the inopportune death of Jesus on the cross. All re-interpret the death of Jesus, but all accept the death of Jesus. That lack of avoidance speaks to the fact, historical fact perhaps, that a man named Jesus did die.

Now the question that for me is much more productive is what was special about Jesus. AS I said, there were others, including John the Baptist. Why wasn’t a cult built around their deaths? Perhaps it is the brilliance of those that were left alive? Who knows. Or was it that a cult was never really intended? That’s a big unknown. Perhaps those left behind felt that it was pointless to write about Jesus because he was coming back, but not because he was God, but because he was one of God. What Paul did was nothing short of putting this idea on it’s head, I think, and invented a narrative that resonated with a larger audience, something that was unheard of in the jewish environment. He opened wide the doors of conversion to men who were uncircumcised. To do this he re-envisioned the death of Jesus as ransom paid. Paul was, however, still immersed in the narrative of an apocalypse, and for years “The Way” continued without much of a set of scriptures. It is only so long that an audience can go without some tangible object, and this gave rise to a variety of narrators, preachers that Paul had to debunk, and even then, Christianity proceeded to multiply itself and it was only the force of the State that finally force a solution and created an imperfect myth.

No myth has been as imperfect as the Christian myth. Countless heresies, wars, inquisitions. Why? Because Christianity is a myth built on a foundation of a historical figure and captured for eternity in his infamous death. Upon this failure a triumph was carved, but it was not a triumph of creativity, but of faith. What kept Christianity alive was not it’s myth, for very few could understand the myth itself. I challenge anyone to give an elegant description/explanation of the Trinity. Even Tertullian brags about the impotence of the myth and the strength of Faith.

For these reasons I don’t believe that Jesus was a myth because, as myths goes, there were many other narratives that would have been more elegant. Not only that but one can see the evolution of the story of Jesus, growing ever more fantastic as the years past. The loss of the Council of Jerusalem and Paul destroyed all connections with people that had known of Jesus, directly (Jesus had a brother) or indirectly, giving more liberty for people to read into what was left of the story their own interpretation.

Your word, as does many others mean nothing to me without historical evidence of the biological living “Jesus” as you and many others claim to have existed.

nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

nobeliefs.com/comments18.htm

Duplicate.

So you found a website where a guy managed to compile a paper supporting a position you had before you found the website.  Everybody does that, so what? There's ike a milion equal and opposite websites.  It doesn't change the fact that comtemporary biblical scholarship maintains that Jesus existed as a real historical figure, to the point that nobody really argues it anymore outside of YouTube. 

garyhabermas.com/books/histo … us.htm#ch9

Oh no, now we both have a website. Guess it’s a draw!

I can make a better case against Relativity theory than you can against the historical Jesus.

Except the entire argument I provided is explaining why that isn’t credible evidence. LOL Tacitus and the likes argument. Heard it a million times. Not credible as historical evidence.

Sure you can.

Why, cause your favorite website says so? So you mean I gotta spend another 30 seconds finding a counter-counter-website to your website?

Scholarship!!

Look, it's like this.  Nothing that matters has been discovered about Jesus in a century or more, and there's a real strong possibility that nothing else ever will be discovered.  It is very likely that every cave has been searched, every inscription read, every bone bothered.  Everything you see, everything you read that was done since your grandparents were born is just another person looking at the same old data- which means it says more about the person than it does the data.  And I'm talking both sides here. So it really doesn't matter what the critical theorists say about Jesus or the feminists or the evangelicals or the artists or the culture critics or the anti-war people or the racists or anybody. They're just saying "me me me".  Which is something you observed earlier in this thread, as I recall, you just only applied it to the believers instead of the skeptics. 
All you can do if you want to know what's going on is ignore the individual scholars and look at scholarship.  What's been going on with Jesus scholarship by everybody, as a trend, since the Englightenment. INdividual scholars mean nothing because you can find an individual scholar who says anything you want to hear.  But the [i]trend[/i] since the Englightenment has been less and less skepticism about the life of Jesus. We've gone from consensus of the Gospels being considered basically a fantasy story with no real content at all other than a few place names, to concensus being that Jesus was a real guy, who lved when the Gospels say, did the non-magical things the Gospels attribute to him, had disciples, was crucified, and shortly after his crucifixion had people claiming he had risen from the dead.  That's been the trend, and that means something.  That you found a guy who thinks what you think on geocities or whatever does not mean something.

That’s what you think. Just because the majority deem it so doesn’t mean it is. Just like in the past with the Earth being the center of the Universe and many other times the majority has been wrong. I’m not going to follow the majority because the majority of people are fools, which is why they don’t look into Philosophy and think about the deeper things, which is why they don’t select leaders who are good at leading and many other things.

You can try to find a counter argument, but the argument provided is explaining that the hearsay that is deemed evidence isn’t evidence and why. I don’t care for this discussion anymore really, my minds not going to sway from anyone’s simple word or book.

People often say “don’t believe everything you read on the internet” right? So then why do people believe everything written in a book? And no, my idea’s on this subject were not from that website. That website just offers a more detailed and longer explanation of what I am saying, of which I don’t feel like writing a book here so I show it instead.

I don’t really give a hell if the majority of people think it’s the trend. Majority of people don’t look into the topic, they believe what has been told to them out of faith, and trust in what they have been told from their parents or ancestors. Some even do not want to see their life long beliefs crumble because they have believed it for so long. I really don’t care to believe in something just because it’s the “trend” and accepted by everyone. That’s the separation between the majority conformists and a unique individual with own set of thoughts.

Right, so stick with what the tiny minority thinks instead because you like it better. That’s the path to truth, right?

This is exactly what I said above that you THINK you’re disagreeing with. You don’t claim what you claim about Jesus because you know something we don’t - there IS nothing we don’t. You claim what you claim because you think most people are stupid and you want to feel like a non-conformist. It has nothing to do with ‘the evidence’ with you, or with them. That’s exactly what I’m saying people are doing… which is why you don’t look at what one person is doing or one clique is doing or even one decade is doing.

But yeah, you’re tired of this conversation- you got a link that says everything you want to hear, I’d be tired of it too. But I’m no less right for that.

I can’t believe that bandwagon argument is used so frequently by somebody claiming to have a college diploma AND simultaneously discrediting the general, average population on numerous other occasions (months ago in my PoE thread and recently in Ecmandu’s thread during your exchange with mr reasonable). I mean, if you’re gonna use horrible arguments at least be consistent, no? You just embarrass yourself by discrediting the average person when it comes to intellectual matters in one thread and then using them in an inductive argument that would be weak even if you weren’t inconsistent in another thread, when it fits you.

Now, if people weren’t indoctrinated into believing ridiculous bible stories from their youth and if those stories didn’t predicate on inherent human fears and psychological biases the majority is well known to succumb to then maybe your argument would have some, weak, little inductive merit. But taking all factors into account I just cited, it’s not even worth mentioning.

Who said anything about the gen pop? Did you read what I wrote? I’m talking about trends within biblical scholarship over the past century or two, not popular opinion.

Not even worth reading either, apparently.

This is what I’m talking about:

There’s a more specific example that you said months ago, something along the lines of you not caring about the word of the average Joe on the street. I can dig it up if you really want, though now I’m not sure if it’s from my PoE thread or my Challenge to theists thread.

I read your version of the argument, wasn’t too impressed by it.

Yes, that’s right, the average Joe on the street doesn’t know much of anything about whatever academic subject you choose to bring up, and a lot of them don’t know much about ANY academic topic whatsoever.

 What does that have to do with what I'm saying in this thread about trends in biblical scholarship?  If anything it supports my view that folks like Artimas just doing an internet search for a website that defends their prejudices and saying "THERE I PROOVED IT" is a bad idea.

It does heavily undermine your argument from populum you’re so frequently making.

Oh, so you’re not talking about what I’m saying in this thread, then? You’re just kinda…generally criticizing the ways and means of Uccisore? Alright.

I just feel like that’s one of the weakest arguments generally, when used about anything. I mean, if somebody told me they believe in aliens, the fact that the majority don’t would be one of the last counter-arguments I’d think of, and I’m not sure if I’d use it at all. The majority is just generally too ignorant about slightly more complex matters that are out of their area of expertise for me to take their opinion seriously, as a basis for a supposedly rational, philosophical argument. To make matters worse, you expressed a similar sentiment yet you continuously use that argument.

I didn’t say I proved it. It is your lack of proving it which I am explaining. I guess this eludes you? Something simple and obvious turned so complicated and incomprehensible.

This is where theists fail, every single time.

“if god doesn’t exist prove it!” “If Jesus didn’t exist prove it!” You ask me to prove the non-existence of something which provides already little to no evidence of which should already prove itself. You’re the ones that need to do some proving. Not us disbelievers. There is a reason we DISBELIEVE in the first place. Because it lacks sufficient evidence and data. You know, that thing called documentation that fits into the timeline soundly?

It isn’t prejudices. It’s facts. There isn’t enough hard evidence to prove anything.