History is saturated already (implications for philosophy)

Everything we think we know about history is partly false, if only because lacking certain relevant contexts and associated facts. In just the way the present moment is ‘full’, saturated of its own content and reality, so too is every moment of the past– however when it comes to the past we can no longer access that fullness directly, and the further back we stretch our minds to attempt to observe events from the past the more of the fullness of it slips away.

Why is this important to understand? Because without it we can feel like we fully understand something about the past. Take WW2 as an example. The history of WW2 is often hotly debated and it seems like most people feel strongly that they understand pretty much what happened. What led up to the war, what happened in the war, who won and who lost, good guys vs bad guys, etc. People may argue about details or even about the fundamentals of WW2 but they still think their own position is full, saturated for the most part. In their own mind there are not critical and huge chunks of missing information, because if there were then they would not be able to cling to the idea that they understand what really happened.

Yet in reality, for whatever side or perspective you happen to be on when it comes to historical events, WW2 or otherwise, your idea does indeed contain huge gaps of missing information. You do not REALLY know what happened back then unless you were there, and even if you were there and can trace a particular route through the saturated reality of the then-present moment which you personally did experience, that perspective you have is still limited via your own subjectivity and lack of access to tangent events and facts, especially when it comes to facts that were already deliberately hidden or covered over in some way (which many facts always are in the saturated present moment).

Yet no one seems to approach history with a sense of humility and questioning. Why is that, I wonder. Too much indoctrination via ‘education’ as we are told how certain historical events happened? I think it has to do with false pedagogy. I remember learning about history throughout school and there was never, as far as I can remember, any emphasis on things being unknown, murky, debatable or up to interpretation. There was no humility about how what we were being taught might be wrong or only partly correct. There was no room baked in for the unknown or the mistaken (or, much less, for the deliberately obscured or distorted). Not only was there no room for these but we were never even taught that such things existed in the first place.

So it became inevitable that people who grew up under such a system would view history through the tyrannical lens of a false clarity lacking humility, i.e. as a kind of ideology. No understanding of how history was its own present moment just like this moment right now, and no imagination to wonder at the vastness of the unknowns we never have access to. Let alone that the retelling of history can also be used as a weapon. No, all of this is deliberately glossed over or missing entirely from modern education, at least as far as I have seen.

What is the effect of this?

People have lost a serious connection to their own past. They become radically of the present moment in so far as even their recollections of the past are mentally constituted under the form of their present moment experiences. They assume access mentally to historical knowledge is more or less the same as their access to the present world around them, and mentally there is no proper distinction between these two wildly different kinds of information-access, no room for the gaps or errors, so that a questioning or wondering humility never appears and no (or very little) space is made for the possibility of deliberate subversions and lies. In this way history vanishes from existence: in trying to bring it fully into the present moment it is left fully outside that which is present as its own and much different character is mistaken and its content bastardized all with a near-ubiquitous ruthlessness and arrogance rarely seen elsewhere.

By violating our relationship with the past we distort and falsify our present as well. This inevitably seeps into philosophy via the many routs of content and form pervading our mentality. The entire mind becomes clouded in strange and unseen ways. It is therefore no wonder that people are unable to walk clearly through the fog of their own thinking. I would wager that one of the best ways to address this deep problem philosophy has with properly thinking in the present is, as ironic as it may seem, to work on correcting our relationship with the past. Then we might be capable of uniting our minds more effectively across time which should expand the window in which effectively-foundational thinking builds from its own ground of requirements. History SHOULD be viewed as an aspect of the present, but only when we become capable of properly enacting this in and as the accurate reality of our own present moment of consciousness it truly is.

In fact it might even be claimed that without a more or less accurate awareness of the form as such of historical thinking, clear and proper thinking in the present becomes all but impossible.

I think it is a matter of ageing. At some point in life, you’ll be in a situation that will be either covered by the media, written about in books, or talked about with peers after some time.

Then and there you can see how even that is different from what happened. Most people don’t care for it and change what they remember to fit what is now told as.

That’s why a lot of times is very important not to take context into account, since that ‘context’ you think of is actually not the context at all. For example, I have seen many ‘explanations’ of things stated simply as “well, it happened after WW2”, which either only make sense if there is a completely solid knowing of that implications, or it’s rather an subreptitiuos ideological divide: if you don’t agree with my interpretation, you are out of the conversation.

I will have to disagree on several aspects.

First of all, in my view, there is no such thing as “what REALLY happened”. Even when we examine the same facts, personal opinions and bias are going to influence our understanding of these facts. Let’s take your example, the Second World War. We have specific principal military events that happened, all historians have them in their disposal. And yet, a historian with communist background asserts that the decicive factor for the win was the USSR, while for a capitalist historian the Anglo-Americans were the important winning factor in the war. It is not the lack of facts, it is a matter of perspective.

I also disagree that there are no people which observe the history with humility. Plenty of historians recognize that important historical events have happened due to multiple reasons, they provide a detailed account and then they give their opinion on the order of importance of the reasons. This to me is good historical analysis. You are not going to 100% get rid of personal preferences, but you can have a better perspective.

Perhaps you are referring to media, or social media historical accounts. A good rule of thump for the reliability of historical analysis is to see if the account you are reading provides citations of sources (other history books or, more preferably, documents produced at the time the events happened). I do not trust history discussions without referring to sources.
Even if the conclusion of the account is biased, having myself the ability to examine the sources allows me to draw my own conclusions.

You then seem to agree with @ProfessorX and say that there IS such thing as what really happened, but you are just expressing that people interpret it differently. Interpretation and facts are different - that part of the point of @ProfessorX and you seem to agree with that

No, because we have access to certain facts. The “all facts” is meaningless in an absolute sense. Which are the “all facts”?

  1. How come it is meaningless?
  2. Who talked about “all facts”?

You are the one that talked about ‘all facts’, as much as I could look it up - I don’t know what you are referencing. Now, it’s like saying ‘which are all ducks?’ - I can’t tell you about them, nor I know each duck, but certainly each duck exists. You seem to be confusing the idea about something with the something that idea refers or tries to refer to

And you are confusing subjectivism with objectivism. A statement about reality without reference to human that claims such, it is an objective statement which I reject.

If you are going to speak about objective reality, then you need objective facts, which I called them “all facts” (something along the lines of religious statements about facts that “only God knows in totality”). Ok, forget the “all facts”. Give us the objective facts then. Which are the objective facts?

As a person I can have my own understanding of reality and facts. And my own understanding can be in accordance with the understanding of multiple other people. This does not make it objective reality or objective facts.

No, I’m not confusing that at all. You are talking about things, not about interpretations of things. Those are different. In particular, in this topic that distinction is at the crux of the issue, so if you are to refuse thinking about the topic at hand, what’s the point?

Something exists, for example. Now, I cannot name you ever objective fact same as I cannot name you every human. My ability to point to that makes no difference in that existing or not, as you can surely notice. If that was so, no human that I am not aware of would disappear at the moment of me not being able to point to them. I could even point you a lot of ‘facts’ that are not, like a stereotypical flatearther. That makes no difference.

You can reject true things, you can rejects facts… I completely agree. Many people do that.

I completely agree: the number of people make no difference here. It’s not a matter of consensus (in which that would matter), but a matter of what is true, the facts, and the distinction between that and interpretation. If you cannot discern between one and the other, you have put yourself outside the topic at hand.

No I have not been outside the topic. The what really happened (in capital lettres the really) that the OP used implies an absolute understanding of reality. That is what I rejected in my first statement. For some reason you decided to analyze only the first sentence, while ignoring the rest of the text. Was the rest of my original comment out of context?

PS the all facts was also motivated by the OP comment

“Yet in reality, for whatever side or perspective you happen to be on when it comes to historical events, WW2 or otherwise, your idea does indeed contain huge gaps of missing information”

So even the “all facts” is in context (the missing information).

Not true. Now, the context of that sentence doesn’t matter. See? You seem to be confused - what you thought was the context wasn’t.

I agree that you think you are not outside the topic. It doesn’t imply an absolute understanding of reality, just saying that there is a reality. Not that you can know it and be sure. Quite different stuff. One thing is that there is something that really happened, other that you can know it. One is the thing, the other is the idea about it. That’s what is been pointed: the interpretation is basically impossible to test if it is what really happened.

Ye olde ‘the map is not the territory’ stuff

What context of ‘all facts’?

Thus, I thought I was in context, you thought I was out of context, completely subjective opinions on the same fact (my first comment, if we both believe that it exists). Where is reality on that?

Even if “reality” (objective, i.e. independent of human understanding of it) exists, if there is no way to access it, then for me it makes it irrelevant and not worthy to worry about it.

Now we are going out of context. We simply go on circles about objective and subjective reality. I leave it at that.

Ironically, the one history teacher who really came at issues via perspectives was a terrible teacher. The textbook he used presented, I believe, a specific incident in American history from the perspective of the Native Americans and from the perspective of the European Americans. Excellent, you know, and it didn’t resolve the tensions. So he chose this wonderful textbook, and the focus of his course was sort of around perspectives, but he was a terrible speaker. He gave incorrect information about what would be on the test. He gave terrible feedback. He was not good at answering questions. I don’t know what the universe was trying to communicate to me about here in this situation. As I say this, I am laughing.

I don’t know what the current situation is in schools, and it’s a long time since I’ve been in public education. It’s very clear, or it was very clear, that schooling at that time was not really quite education. Yes, they wanted you to have reading and math so that you could go to college and so that you could be useful in the workforce. But there are much better ways to teach people, like problem-based learning, you know, instead of this, the teacher stands there, asks questions, and, I mean, that is one of the most wasteful uses of learning time possible. I’m not saying that teachers had bad intentions. I’m sure they had decent intentions, but the pedagogy itself, the organization of the school, the sitting at desks, looking forward in space, keeping still, keeping quiet, generally you’re not supposed to interact with your peers. There’s tremendous control of who is speaking at any given moment, rather than small groups working on issues, then presenting to larger groups, you know, kind of a PBL thing, or pair work, or maybe these things have come in, and I’m sure some schools do this, and I’m sure some private schools do it. But the education was really about, you know, getting up when the bells ring and moving and sitting in the right place and listening to authority and regurgitating what authority was saying. I hope that’s changed, but I somehow doubt it. And now the internet is probably destroying a lot of the available space in people’s brains to learn anything, even though it’s an unbelievable research for some, and some people are probably learning a lot. But yeah, I agree with your general statement here.

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History is written by the victors - Hermann Göring

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Where is reality on what?

There is a way of accessing it: something exists. It is independent of human understanding, but you can understand that. You can access it.

Yes, you are going on circles, I agree. The point is that you don’t care for reality, so there’s no point in your opinion here since it doesn’t matter - it is a discussion about the distinction between reality and interpretation. You can’t see more than interpretation so there’s no point in your perspective.

I’d say opinions that conflate reality with interpretation mostly are offtopic everywhere. There must be some niche questions about consensus or the like, but mostly it’s not important

Just joking. That’s a simplistic way. With a ‘mostly’ it would have been way better

Wow, what is this? So, I should stop commenting everywhere? Thanks for such “objective opinion”…

Not at all! You should comment about the topics at hand, and not confuse them for the interpretations of them.

Read OP’s original post, all paragraphs. Then read again my first post, all three paragraphs. And then you can decide if the total comment was off topic. If you continue to think that I was totally off topic, then I can do nothing about that.

Yes, absolutely. I have seen this first hand. And it is commonly discussed phenomenon in psychology too, the idea that eye witnesses are not reliable and even that false memories are not that difficult to implant into people if you try.

Ah, well that seems true too. But my use of the word ‘context’ is different. What I mean is the actual, proper and very real context surrounding any given event and the relevance of that context to the event itself. For example, the context surrounding WW2 is a lot of stuff not directly having to do with WW2 itself. Any historical event has such contexts, other events and people and situations and influences and coincidences and on and on which all added up to produce a sum net effect which was the historical event itself.

We can understand the event in isolation or only partly in terms of its necessary contextual elements, but to really get a proper understanding the full picture would be needed. Not in terms of isolated aspects of course, if you only want to know how many soldiers were in such and such battle on a particular date and location during WW2 then you can learn that without needing to get into all the context surrounding things. But this topic is more about the general picture of history, how we personally relate to history and how this connects to the forms of thinking, and how all of that impacts our ability to philosophize well. If that makes sense.

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Well yes, to the second part of what you said. There are always biases and personal opinions, I think I mentioned as much. But that does not belie the existence of a “what REALLY happened”. Reality does exist you know. What happened did happen, as it did and for the reasons it did. No human mind might be able to grasp that full totality in understanding, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t (or didn’t) exist.

That is essentially what I mean by ‘saturated’ here. The present moment is saturated, full of its own contents and causes. Every thing is existing and connecting to other things, there are no ‘gaps’. Yet we forget that history was like this once too, back when that historical moment was its own present moment.

And the perhaps impossible to attain “what REALLY happened” is still highly relevant even if impossible to obtain, because it acts as an attractor point and clear standard of measure for our philosophizing: we must aim to be as close as possible to the “what REALLY happened” and that should be our standard of value. We can use it as both a standard of value and a measuring stick. Even if we can never fully attain it.

Ok but that’s not what I was talking about.

Did I say there are literally NO people who approach history with humility? If so then I mis-spoke. And yes certainly some people have varying degrees of humility in their approach. But all of that is a side issue and misses the essential point I was trying to make.

Having citations is no guarantee of accuracy. A common trick in media and news is to use circular citations, so one publication will reference a second publication, and that second one will reference the first one. Or this circle can be extended to three, four or more ‘sources’. In this way news can and does invent fabricated stories that seem legitimate.

But generally yeah of course you are right, cited sources are good because then you can go look at those sources and see if they make sense or not.

But, again, none of this really has to do with the topic.

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