how are these countries NOT super powers?

“Democracies” like the USA are built on illusions or paradigms and are themselves thus paradigms/illusions. People may buy into it, but that doesn’t mean they are democratic “citizens”. Certain paradigms were included in the deal, one of them through accepting it being equalled to being part of a democracy. The institutions themselves are built upon paradigms. So these “democracies” are only ways of establishing “order” or the prevalence of an illusionary system in people’s minds and in this sense do not differ from former kingdoms. The truth is, however, that this “order” never reaches any final conclusion (as the kingdoms and “democracies” show) and ultimately results in “disorder” which in reality is the opportunity to get more in touch with how reality really is.

When it comes to the Middle East, it becomes difficult to create any sense of “order” through implementing false thought systems that have been developed in conditions highly specific for the West. This is because there hasn’t been “democracy” there in the past. I heard on the radio that the USA has tried to do such implementations 13 times and only “succeeded” twice, in Japan and in Germany. I don’t know if the thought-systems to be found in Iraq and Afghanistan have the combined character required to welcome the implementation the USA now wants.

False thought-systems are maintained through “expansion/distraction”. People must be kept in the “cages”. “Appearance is everything”. It’s not strange that “Saddam Hussein” lost support. It would be the same if the USA stopped “expanding”. Then the weaknesses of the system/lack of correspondence with reality would go from subconsciousness to consciousness and make people “stop” buy into the system, which they in truth never really did. The USA and other “democracies” are only a question of accepting a lack of correspondence between reality and the various functions assigned to for example institutions on a subconscious level, although maybe not realising that “consciously”.

A true democracy wouldn’t oppress true consciousness. It’s the oppression of true conscioucness/independence from artificial thought systems that is the key to why all false thought systems/empires collapse. As it happens, they have tended to be replaced by “other” false thought systems, because there appears a vacuum that people who haven’t got out of the false consciousness mode unfortunately fill. However, sooner or later true consciousness will prevail, since it can’t be erased, in contrast to the thought systems that aren’t in touch with reality/often have their “origin” in written stuff.

False thought systems are put against each other in addition to how it really is. The West has been and thus is a hindrance to the false thought systems of the Middle East. The latter have experienced a decline, but let’s say the West hadn’t interferred. It could then very well have been the other way around. In the long run, of course, we all have a common goal, the prevalence of true consciousness. But I’m afraid it won’t help the way Bush & co. have acted. But, of course, they couldn’t have acted any differently, since their actions prove a prevalence of false consciousness. And, ultimately, a universal expansion of the dominant false thought system may lead directly to true consciousness, since when it collapses; what is there to replace other than… ? But hopefully, it won’t take that long time. And meanwhile, it is a consolidation that the disorder of false thought systems sooner or later will be replaced by prevalence of true consciousness.

pangloss, it’s been enjoyable to discuss this topic with another person who has a similar appreciation for voltaire. :wink: here are some of my comments to your last post on points that i still see as major tensions in your arguements.

first, your position on the middle east as super powers. you do profess that they seemingly display such unity and cohersion, and the region is comparable to america during the civil war. this definetly is a different arguement that i interpertepted on you last post. the position that major ethnic and religious cleavages in the middle east are simply a difference of ideology needs justification. the difference between a southern rebel during the civil war and an iraqi shi’ite now is that the southerner wanted the present secular state to adopt different internal policies. the iraqi shi’ites want a different theological state than the sunni’s. this problem, i think we have both agreed, is solved through institutions like federalism.

no? why not? the soviet union during the cold war got most of its power from the vilianization of the nation from america – not the democratic source. china’s power is limited today, but still present, because of the large degree of economic freedom buisnesses in the country have – a uniquely democratic quality. the recent war in iraq, i think, was a display of the power that democracies have over all other countries. while the u.s. did flaunt the approval of some minor, non-democrtic states, it was the democratic countries’ support or disapproval that made the biggest impact.

i am unwilling to debate the economic pitfalls of cartels that OPEC is now facing – any economic textbook will cover this. i think the power of OPEC in the region is undeniable, and i think that this power further blocks a true democracy from developing. the missed experience of feudalism, that usually triggers a development to democracy, prepentually leaves the middle eastern countries run only by an elite few.

democracy does not, and i think this is the second time i’ve said this, mean a replacement of one political system in a particular country in another region. it is a process – not a rubber stamp. democracy happens when a country’s government and citizens pledge to adhere to and strive for basic democratic values; which is, most basically, the assurance of individual liberity.

This useful link confirms many of the trends I was identifying, as well as exploring further the past outcomes of oil ‘finds’ on developing countries.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3013967.stm

I do have so much more to say but only have time to post these comments.

Economic freedom does not equal democracy in any sense of the word. Little or no restrictions on an economic system can operate even though personal liberties are restricted or non-existent, and the political system can be tyrannical or democratic.

What you seem to be saying is that if you’re not a socialist who restricts economic freedom, you’re a democrat who doesn’t. This is not true, after all there are democracies which do limit economic freedoms, usually termed social democracies (take virtually any democracy in the EU). While it may become unintelligble to call the Chinese communists as they relax economic constraints this doesn’t mean they become democrats.

The reason it was the democratic states that made a difference is because they are the ones that are presently powerful. It is not being a democracy that makes the powerful but because of their economic and political influence, which is not derivible from their democratic structure. For example the democratic country Luxembourg has the clout of a wet lettuce leaf, hence being a democracy gives no power.

Pangloss, what your link and posts put across was the direction I was trying to adopt, but unfortunatly didn’t explain myself at all. I pretty much agree with your position on the whole thing.

pangloss, the article that you linked me too seems only to agree with my point that i have been arguing for a while now. democracy needs to be implemented in the region. oil one of the main culpruits for this not to happen. here’s an article to a book that does a decent job of describing this, but i would recommend fareed zakaria’s book over this:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0508/p18s01-bogn.html

you’re original position seemed to be along the lines of, the middle east is actually a very powerful community if it were not for several tatics by the united states to repress the region. this claim still seems absurb to me, but please forgive me if i have misinterperted you.

matt, no economic freedom does not equal democracy that why i stated that it is an aspect of democracy. besides, it could be argued that welfare states or social democracies, provide greater economic freedom to citizens then free market societies. the point is that state controlled resourses, that is, when an elite few are the only ones running the country through the control of all revenues, individual liberty is restricted.

what do you think got them that power? pangloss raised the same objection but didn’t answer me. democratic luxemburg still holds more political weight than the republic of congo, pakistan, or columbia. the reason – its citizens would not likely approve of measures that would isolate the country from the international stage. non-democratic countries act in the rulers best interest; democratic countries act in the nation’s best interest, and it is always in a country’s interest to have power.