How can say something is dead if dont know what life is

Philosophy Forums Science, Technology, and Math
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How can you say something is dead ie lacks life if you dont even know what life is

there is a thread asking are sperm alive
someone posted a great list of criteria about what alive means

Growth: A living organism must grow in some manner, most often by converting external materials into progeny or additional mass.

Stimulus Response: Living organisms must respond to stimuli in their environment. The amount of stimuli responded to may vary, as may the specific responses, but there must be some interface between the organism and the external world. Stimuli may result in simple metabolic shifts, or provoke complex behavioral changes.

Metabolism: Living organisms must be capable of converting energy in their environment into a new form. This definitio

n is often given in much more scientifically-precise terms, to ensure the exclusion of pure-energy reactions such as stars.

Homeostasis: Living organisms are able to modify themselves on some level to remain within set parameters. This is related to stimulus response, but builds further on that idea.

Reproduction: All living organisms are capable of replicating. This may be done by interaction with other organisms (sexually), or autonomously (asexually).

Mutation: In addition to being able to reproduce, a living organism must be able to spontaneously change and develop between generations. Autonomous

Motion: A living thing is capable of locomotion

i mean these criteria start with “a living thing are/is”

sorta of circular “a living thing is something that is alive”

but unless you can tell us what life is you cant say sperm is alive or a rock is not alive
i mean all the criteria about what consitutes a living thing is meaningless unless you can tell us what makes a something alive ie tell us what life is

WHAT IS IT IN LIVING THINGS THAT MAKES THEM ALIVE
WHAT IS IT IN YOU THAT MAKES YOU ALIVE
WHAT IS IT IN YOU THAT GIVES YOU LIFE

WHAT IS THIS THING CALLED LIFE THAT WHEN IT LEAVES YOU YOU ARE DEAD

wHAT IS THIS THING CALLED LIFE THAT MAKES THE MATTER IN YOU ALIVE

IF YOU CANT TELL US WHAT LIFE IS YOU CANT TELL US WHEN SOMEONE IS DEAD IE LACKS THIS LIFE

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Life and death aren’t scientific questions, they are labels (symbols) that we apply to things. That said, a reasonable definition for life is: A dynamic system engaged in prolonged controlled disequilibrium. Once the system has equilibrated, the thing can be said to be “dead”. But that is just one view, personally I tend to have a much more expansive definition of what is alive but it all depends on one’s assumptions and how far they are willing to take them.

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that does not tell us what this life in you is
it does not tell us what makes it a dynamic system
all you have said is really a living thing is this - but you have not told us what makes it living ie what is this life it needs to make it dynamic and not dead

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All squares are rectangles. Not all rectangles are squares.

To define a square, you further define a rectangle: all sides are equal.

All life exists. Not all existence is life.

To define life, you further define existence: growth, stimulus response, etc.

It’s an arbitrary definition, but it’s what we work with. Life is only those things. If we run into something the exhibits some of these qualities but not all, that thing is not life unless we modify the definition and throw in a few extra provisos.

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that does not tell us what life is stp decribing living things from the circular argument
"oh that is a live so it must be alive lets see what qualities it has that says it is alive"i
in other words you start from knowing something is alive before you then describe its qualities -it is all so human centric cant you see that
if you can tell us what life is then we might be able to find things we thought where dead that have life

the quality of water wetness viscosity density etc does not tell us what water is ie H2O you start from knowing what water is to then decribe its qualities

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I already said the definition was arbitrary and possibly subject to change. Most people are okay with that.

Can you use punctuation or something? Grammar has and enhances meaning.

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if the definition of life is arbitary then so must be the definition of death
one day dead people may be regarded as still alive -it just means changing the definition of life based on your arguments

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Of course it doesn’t. Biochemistry, on the other hand, answers that question rather effectively.

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so please tell us what biochemistry says life is
not describe a living thing
but
what makes it living
i mean electricity makes a pc work
so what makes living things work ie what is life- from biochemistry
is it a speacial hormone
perhaps it might even be bio electricity
or even god forbid a soul

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Yup. But why would we? Here on earth, the definitions of life and death are pretty solid.

You can ask the ontological question ‘what makes something alive’ because of this arbitrary definition. With the definition, you can ponder the being of life and also the definition’s validity.

For example, are viruses alive? The strict definition says no. But they exhibit many of the qualifications for life, and those that they don’t meet by themselves they can meet once they’ve infected a cell. Thanks to our arbitrary definition, we have a starting point for considering the ‘whatness’ of life.

Until a better definition emerges, I’m going to call cold, unresponsive, rotting human bodies dead.

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but what makes them dead
do they lack a soul
a hormone
a bio electric current
what do they lack that makes them with no life
what is this life they lack
if you cant tells us you have no definition of life

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They don’t exhibit all of the characteristics of the definition you quoted:

growth, metabolism, homeostasis, reproduction, mutation, motion.

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I’d go with ATP, personally. But I suppose it is all about where you want to start.

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that does us not tell me what life is
all that tells is what are the characteristics of something that has life in it

please tell us what life is
am i not expressing my self clearly -or dont you understand the question
like relgious people might say that any thing that has these chatacterisdtics
growth, metabolism, homeostasis, reproduction, mutation, motion
has a soul- it is the soul that makes it alive so that it can then do

growth, metabolism, homeostasis, reproduction, mutation, motion

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I can’t. I can say that something that doesn’t meet those criteria but used to is now dead. Those criteria are what something needs at a minimum to be considered alive.

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then you dont know if something lacks this life and is dead -that is simple

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I hate repeating myself.

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that does not tell us what makes them alive ie life

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No, it doesn’t. But it does set the bar rather low. Life at a minimum needs those seven criteria. If something does not meet the criteria, it is not alive. If it once met those criteria and does not anymore, it is now dead.

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you cant say that
unless you know what life is you cant say what min it needs or not