How does one answer nihilism?

Minus possible biological drives (determined through evolutionary psychology, I suppose), are SECULAR “values” such as caring for others, affection for partners, refusing to murder, etc. justifiable logically?

I understand that to maximize freedom and happiness, for example, we all need to cooperate and live as such. But is such a thing as “cooperation” justifiable outside of regarding it as the means to the aforementioned end (maximum freedom and happiness)?

Basically, I was thinking about an answer to nihilism. I can’t say, however, that even secular values are justifiable. This doesn’t mean, however, that I don’t want to uphold them, since I do wish to maximize my own freedom and happiness. The only thing I seem to disagree with is the conclusion of nihilism – that there will be a crisis in human society.

If our goals are similar – that is, freedom and happiness – and we find an objective means of reaching those goals, there won’t be any need for that apocalyptic decay into meaninglessness and madness.

Opinions, ideas?

Biology.
We share the biology, and all that entails, of being human.
Things such as caring for others (Man has a higher chance of reproducing when protected by the group) affection for partners (the drive to reproduce) and not being homicidal (homicidal people tend to die out before they reproduce) are only values because they have biological , and thus logical, grounding.
Our mind is only part of the machine, and although many think it is a cause, i think it is an effect. Much if not most of what we do is caused by biological impulses we have no control over, and that shared biology can and does result in the same effect - secular values.

Science is what makes a certain people go nihilist-happy, Nietzsche warned us about it. Meaning is there for you to find, happiness is based on enjoying and coming out triumphant in your meanings. So telling yourself that there is no meaning is denying yourslef the chance to be happy. But do happy nihilists exist? If I say “no because real nihilists can’t be happy”, then I’d be ignoring a certain scientific facts. People are happy when they think that they’ve got what they want. Nihilists are happy because their philosophy frees them from pessimism to an extend also, some of them think that they have’ve reached the pinnacle of philosophy. What they don’t realise is that their reasoning is in constant contradiction to the very way they live. How? Reread the begining part of this post then you’ll see which version is actually higher and broader.

The only way to avoid the feeling of meaninglessness that nihilism often lead to, is to define your own meaning–nihilists often ignore the power and beauty of fantasy. As I see it, the only good reason to do anything is to maximize your own pleasure/happiness. If you define that as your meaning, and are successful in its attainment, you will be living the best life you possibly could. As for morals and values, they are useful as general guidelines, but only as far as they are beneficial to oneself in the end. Biological drives are certainly valid. But if you can go beyond them, and are better of if you do, then why not?

Pretend to be God, and that the world is there for your pleasure alone–that’s what I do.

I find the compulsive collecting of audio gear and recorded music helps.

Nihilism - at least Communism has an ethos

The answer is to embrace choice, to seize life, to enjoy it. The meaning might not be out there to be found, but that doesn’t stop us having fun in the meantime

and we shall all be nihlists at the end. Can’t you see that (from your own perspectives)?

And philosophical sarcasm too…(fine, Phaedrus).

Hedonism= self-delusioned nihilism.

You could do better than that, Celox. Fuck “the beauty of fantasy”. Nihilists are to deal with reality- and with reality only. If we want the destruction of fake moral “values” is because we know these “values” lack all foundation. To live our lives searching for artificial happiness (21st century “ideal”) is to live our lives in an useless way. Because pleasure always will end in pain, in solitude, in despair. Remember that: answering nihilism with “optimistic hedonism” is a self-congratulatory delusion. At the end nihilism is waiting for all of us.

Hello, Professor.

What the hell would an answer to nihilism be? Do you know all the features behind this concept? If no, go to this site:

[size=150]Nihilism’s Home Page[/size]

The author shows (in a very convincing style) why all our conceptions on this world will lead us unavoidably to nihilism. There is no way for us to find “meaning” and “happiness” or to create such things. The only thing we should do is face things like they really are (and they are not very good to face) and stop pretending that we accept and “respect” all the falsehood, all the lies, all the filth that there are in this world. The answer is- destruction. But it would be a very different kind of destruction. The world where we live in will destroy itself sooner or later (people know that they won’t bear all the hypocrisy, all the insanity of this world forever), capitalism will be destroyed sooner or later. Nihilism doesn’t deal with what is to be destroyed but with what should be constructed after this (iminent) destruction.

no, the “what should be constructed” is utopian tripe and bullshit that collapses for the exact same reasons “evil” capitalism and “corrupt” religions collapse…

nothing has value

-Imp

One of the problems with Nihilism is that Nihilism is superficial. If you perceive any system from a distant enough perspective then it is meaningless. If you accept a superficial perspective as the most valid perspective than every activity is unimportant.

Meaning comes from participation. A meaningful life is a life fully lived, that is to say you must have active and deliberate participation in your life. This is achieved through interaction with living systems. Your life most frequently becomes meaningful from the interactions you have with other people.

That is rather rethoric, Xanderman, and we nihilists know how to ignore such claims- they are much more superficial than nihilism.

To believe that “interaction” with other people make our lives “meaningful” is not different from believing that “praying to god” makes our lives meaningful. Both alternatives are to be rejected, and in fact they are.

Fabiano,

I had a look at that website you linked to, and it wasn’t about nihilism, but pessimism. Pessimism is a childish form of nihilism, that of a petulant child throwing it’s books out of the pram

One phrase in particular caught my eye for its blatant hypocrisy

Individualism is a morality, and not a very logical one at that. Saying ‘rid yourself of this dogma and replace it with this dogma’ isn’t nihilistic, or revolutionary, or alternative or radical or any of that rhetorical shite.

That you claim to be a realist is nothing but laughable. Basically you got stuck in that pointlessly rebellious stage most people go through when they are about 15, they think the whole world’s against them simply because they can’t get what they want all the time.

Then what causes you to post here? This activity is a level of interaction, it is seeking to experience different levels of connection with other living beings.

This I more or less agree with.

Non-conformism is always historically relative; it is adopted against something, and is usually reactionary in nature, like todays religious conservatism. I would almost go so far as to say that the term itself is indexical ; which is why it can carry no weight in an argument. Self conscious non-conformism is a kind of conformism, as in when you see the Goths or whatever all dressing the same, talking the same, thinking the same, etc. Likewise individualism, I think; at least to a significant extent. If you catch yourself asking, ‘what would an individual do here’, then you are already a hypocrite.

I think this statement is incoherent, because it uses a standard of value
to pass judgement.

Regards,

James

“Are to”? Who cares what one “are to” do? There is no harm in playing if you know it’s a game. I’m not saying you should start to believe in the fantasy as real. But even that would be better for you, Fabiano.

Stop calling yourself a “nihilist”, or giving yourself some other stupid label–it limits your thinking.

Yes they do. I too want the destruction of absolute morals and values. But you still follow some general guidelines, don’t you?

How is a feeling of happiness artificial? Are not feelings real? Feelings are perceptions, and our perceptions are the only things we can know to be real. And “useless”? Explain to me what is useful, then. The closest we can get to real “meaning” is pleasure/happiness, because it is not a fantasy created by man.

I have been trough nihilism, and I know it can be defeated. I could help you see it if you’d like, but I don’t think you want to be helped.

What do you mean?

I think by mentioning “fantasy,” Celox might have meant anything that gives pleasure. I like to read, do some work, etc., but in the end, I’d also like to take a few minutes of to myself and daydream a little bit. That’s “fantasy” but it’s equal to “rest.” What’s wrong?

They do lack foundation, but some of these values – I’m referring to the secular ones – maximize happiness. And if your final goal is freedom and individuality, whatever that is to you, you must act accordingly and help bring about these elements, right?

What do you mean?

What is your alternative?

Is this a generalization based on personal experience (I don’t mean to be offensive, I’m actually wondering why you said this)?

Also, pleasure does end in pain when it’s done in dangerous excess. Unprotected sex, for example. If you’re able to handle certain consequences with little or no damage to yourself – and only you can judge that – what’s wrong with it?

I was looking for people’s opinions, and especially rebuttals.

Of course, I agree. Wouldn’t mostly everyone one this site agree?

Agreed.

And what is that, in your perspective?

Um, I actually wasn’t being sarcastic this time… :blush:

Well I have given my rebuttal, however I suppose it was too cursory and easy to overlook. It was;

In an earlier post, called ‘the logic trap’, the problem of nihilism was also explored; perhaps you would like to look there for some helpful insights? In any case, I wrote a little more there, which I have pasted below to elaborate on my point;

Regards,

James

“the sky is blue”

I think this statement is incoherent, because it uses a standard of value to pass judgement.

was it incoherent because it used a standard? but all judgements use a standard or did you claim it was incoherent because you didn’t like the standard applied?

-Imp

Pity. Used in the “right” times, sarcasm is a wonderful thing… :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

and…

a) There is no “solution” for nihilism- it is a conclusion. It is where any form of rational thinking leads to.

b) Our conclusions are pretty alike, aren’tb they?

Best definition of mine ever read. Where have you got that? You want to defeat nihilism and substitute it for hedonism, but as I have said, hedonism is nothing but self-deluded nihilism (pleasure is negative, it is searched in order to forget pain).

Don’t know why, but what does that matter?

Fantasies are lies. Why to run away from reality if at the end it will always be there? Why to deceive ourselves? I used to dream a lot, I used to “daydream” a bit but now I don’t do so simply because I don’t want to live my life like a fool.

Why to “maximize” happiness? Can’t you see the falsehood of this illusion? Can’t you see that to “maximize” happiness and pleasure is only a means of forgetting reality, it is only a means of becoming indifferent to everything around you. I have posted my views on such attitudes in other topics and I think people here already know what I think about such things like “maximize” happiness…WE are about to “build” a world still emptier than this one, a world where everybody will be fighting endlessly for pleasure and artificial happiness in order to forget its pain and its emptiness.

That was answered above.

My alternative is a bit more complicated than I can explain. Nihilistic affair.

Why do you search pleasure? Why? To forget pleasure? Because in reality you are very happy and must always search for more happiness? No. You search for pleasure because you want to forget your pain, your emptiness, your nothingness. And you will not be able to stop to search it as long as you live because you know that when you stop it, everything is finished.[i] Le jeu est fini

[/i], all is over: you are face to face with sadness and despair again. Pleasure is always negative because it is a consequence of pain, it is a escaping from despair, that is always there, it is the only thing really substancial.

Don’t agree with every single word, but it is a bit alike:

But a nihilist is what I am.

Thanks Celox, but I don’t think you’ve been “through” nihilism. Things seems still very alike…

You don’t have to run away from reality in order to daydream. As long as you know the fantasy is not real, there is no danger in having it.

Happiness is more important than truth. The desire for truth is a construct, but the desire for pleasure is innate. However, truth is one of the best tools for attaining happiness. That’s the reason we should try to gain the best understanding of reality we can.

Why should one stop seeking pleasure? If pleasure is indeed an escape from pain, then what is wrong with that?

I’m sure. I just question the usefulness in associating oneself so closely with any form of established ideas. You may be inclined to disagree with them in the future, but then “what you are” may limit your ability to change. Also, there are different definitions of “nihilism”, so why not let your ideas speak for themselves?

I guess you can say that nihilist ideas are still part of me, but that I have put an additional layer on top. I just don’t agree with you that the ideas require us to live a life in despair. In fact I know, as my life is largely a happy experience. You must think that my understanding of reality is lacking, and so I welcome you to challenge it–show me what part of reality it is I do not understand.