How is THAT determined? Huh Magnus? Huh Peacegirl? Tell me..

We don’t freely self-determine anything. We act according to our upbringing, our beliefs, our genetics, our impulses, and other cofactors. The best option is not always thought out. You could not have read anything I posted because I even copied and pasted why will is never free. We are constantly moving in the direction of greater satisfaction from the slightest impulse to scratch an itch to a well thought out decision as to where to go to college. We cannot escape our nature which is to move away from any dissatisfying position to a more satisfying position each and every moment of time. Otherwise, we would stay in one position forever, which is death. Most of us choose to live which requires movement.

[i]In reality, we are carried along on the wings of time or life during every moment of our existence and have no say in this matter whatsoever. We cannot stop ourselves from being born and are compelled to either live out our lives the best we can, or commit suicide. Is it possible to disagree with this? However, to prove that what we do of our own free will, of our own desire because we want to do it, is also beyond control, it is necessary to employ mathematical (undeniable) reasoning. Therefore, since it is absolutely impossible for man to be both dead and alive at the same time, and since it is absolutely impossible for a person to desire committing suicide unless dissatisfied with life (regardless of the reason), we are given the ability to demonstrate a revealing and undeniable relation.

Every motion, from the beating heart to the slightest reflex action, from all inner to outer movements of the body, indicates that life is never satisfied or content to remain in one position for always like an inanimate object, which position shall be termed “death.” I shall now call the present moment of time or life here for the purpose of clarification, and the next moment coming up there. You are now standing on this present moment of time and space called here and you are given two alternatives, either live or kill yourself; either move to the next spot called there or remain where you are without moving a hair’s breadth by committing suicide.

“I prefer…” Excuse the interruption, but the very fact that you started to answer me or didn’t commit suicide at that moment makes it obvious that you were not satisfied to stay in one position, which is death or here and prefer moving off that spot to there, which motion is life. Consequently, the motion of life which is any motion from here to there, however slight or imperceptible, is a movement away from that which dissatisfies, otherwise, had you been satisfied to remain here or where you are, you would never have moved to there. Since the motion of life constantly moves away from here to there, which is an expression of dissatisfaction with the present position, it must obviously move constantly in the direction of greater satisfaction. It should be obvious that our desire to live, to move off the spot called here, is determined by a law over which we have no control because even if we should kill ourselves we are choosing what gives us greater satisfaction, otherwise we would not kill ourselves. The truth of the matter is that at any particular moment the motion of man is not free for all life obeys this invariable law. He is constantly compelled by his nature to make choices, decisions, and to prefer of whatever options are available during his lifetime that which he considers better for himself and his set of circumstances. For example, when he found that a discovery like the electric bulb was for his benefit in comparison to candlelight, he was compelled to prefer it for his motion, just being alive, has always been in the direction of greater satisfaction. Consequently, during every moment of man’s progress he always did what he had to do because he had no choice.[/i]

well I do hope you think twice about that before you make any sudden life-changing decisions like randomly going to Harvard on a whim. If you put more thought into something, it opens up more combinations of thoughts and possibilities, and it gives you more time to assess the pros and cons and not unthinkingly respond to your impulses like a pre-programmed automaton who has no concept of time. Don’t wait until the last minute, PG. Think twice today, while thinking is still a thing.

No one is denying that well thought out decisions are usually better than rash decisions. In fact, thinking is a good thing. lol The only point I’m making is the mechanism of choice, which demonstrates that we can only move in one direction (regardless of the choice made; please put that aside) because of the reasons given.

There is a huge cavern between having a choice mechanism, a.k.a. consent structure, and having no choice, even when the options are crap. If you had no consent/choice structure/mechanism, you couldn’t even think what the options are, much less assess that they’re all crap. I find thinking very freeing. Just the ability to think feels like I have free will to not be enslaved to my impulses, those unrelenting masters of whatever. If that isn’t free will, I don’t know what is.

Pretty sure we should anthropomorphize impulses, those dastardly neutral, hen-pecking, helicopter-paternalizing nags that are not the boss of us!

Human beings have the ability not to act impulsely even without free will. It IS a free feeling to know we are not subjected to old habits. You keep going back to conflating being “free” (of old burdens and constraints) with the free will we DO NOT have. Are you that afraid knowing that you have always made choices based on your preference? They may have been “dumb” choices looking back but they were the best choices (for you) at the time. I have learned from my mistakes as all of us have. Getting burned teaches us to choose differently the next time. This does not negate the fact that our will is not free.

That’s like saying we have the ability to fly without propulsion.

As long as we have life we have movement, even if it’s just blinking our eyes or using a computer to talk.

Are those the only two options?

If a person is paralyzed and wants to communicate, maybe these are the only two options.

If one part of the brain that motivates behavior is paralyzed (stuck), you can activate a different part of the brain and trick the behavior into action by working around the paralyzed part. I was watching it on the news or something. This particular individual had automatic habit behavior that he was stuck in the middle of, like walking on a trail. In order to work around that part of his brain he had to trigger the goal-oriented part of his brain. He did that with the kinds of tools he used during his hike. I think it would be cool to test it on different kinds of being stuck, like anxiety/fear and depression. Without drugs. Drugs are just a different kind of stuck. Not free at all, unless you’re the one benefiting from their market value—in which case you’re a slave to the market.

“We can only move in one direction.”

Who is this “We” you’re talking about? Look at all humanity. Look at all mammals. Look at all biology. Everybody is moving in different directions, constantly clashing, competing. There is no consensus on “greater satisfaction”. Greater according to whom? You? Your “We”, your hypothetical in-group?

Fact of the matter is, people and individuals have choice. Some do …most do not. Maybe you enjoy having no Free-Will, but that is your conscious choice, to be and remain a Slave, because you find comfort and security in the prospect of being controlled by some Authority. That’s your Choice and your Free-Will. That is your Determinism. But you speak for yourself, only. You do not speak for a “We”. You certainly do not speak for me; you never will. And you do not speak for Humanity, who would set themselves apart, and above, that of Animals. You have no claim toward, and no representation of, Humanity.

If you’re not Free, you’re not Human.

Sorry.

Free-Will is the only thing, the only barrier, that could, hypothetically separate Hu/Man from Animal.

If you don’t have Free-Will, then you don’t have Humanity.

Why is it always the Abrahamic fundamentalists that wish to deprive this, and strip this away from all others? What does this say and imply about Christians, Jews, Moslems???

What does this say about your “God”?

Why is Lucifer, God’s #1 Angel? Because S/He rebelled against God, correct?

Because of Free-Will.

Nature cannot tolerate Tyrants for long. Not even God.

Homo sapiens are animals -
From the perspective of mainstream biology.
Our capacity, is the capacity of animals.

One’s actions contribute to a result,
but don’t determine a result in it’s entirety.

We may be have a conviction or intention to seek an outcome,
but that ‘determination’ is a different than the philosophical concept of determinism.

From the philosophical view of determinism,
one’s convictions are products of prior causes -
causes which can be traced back to before one resembled a living being.

Thus, hard determinists may claim:
‘Your convictions are not the source of any outcome &
your sense of being able to control the future is a mirage.’

A step further:
‘You didn’t cause the conditions that led to your preferences.
Thus, to choose in accord with your preferences,
is not to exercise an influence beyond the clasp of [prior] causality’s chain.’

Some things were never an option, just a mirage.
Can I choose to have never existed?
Is that an option, or an impossibility?

Freedom from the chain of causality,
appears to be a mirage.
An impossibility.

Regardless of our preferences,
some things are beyond us -
bigger than us.

Things affect other things -
regardless of if one is aware of the change.
Parasites still affected people before we knew they existed.
The nuclear forces still affected matter when unknown.

One’s awareness is not the source of change -
awareness itself is a type of change,
subject to the influences of that which produces it.

One’s will is subject to influences beyond one’s control.
You might be ‘free’ to act in accord with your will,
but you are not free to determine the contents of your will.

Like what?

An Olympian can jump higher than the rest of Humanity, and they keep going higher. These expectations you and peacegirl seem to have, are unable to confine the greatest humans who ever lived, and will live in the future. There is not a single constraint that can’t be broken.

Absolute, Unbridled, Godly, Divine Freedom

Free-Will

Free to resist ALL constraints.

And so, some few men Overcame all of these barriers, and will overcome whichever barrier your mind conceives to block Progress next.

Ask yourself, why are you, and peacegirl, and the majority of humanity, so compelled and compulsed to imagine such barriers?

Why block yourselves? What rationality compels you to restrain yourself?

I think these predictions are a logical consequence of the beliefs I hold.
They lead to a perspective and understanding of reality, that renders certain imagined possibilities - impossible.
I can make a value judgement as to whether this a preferred scenario - but that is neither here nor there.
Reality will be as it is.

I could understand if someone dislikes a set of predictions,
they may seek to disprove them.

I struggle to imagine how one could definitively prove or disprove determinism.
I think it’s unfalsifiable.

So your belief is—since the hypothetical Past cannot be changed, so too cannot the Present or the Future??

Your impossibility is based on hypotheticals?

Your grandparents COULD HAVE commit suicide, but they didn’t. Is that the basis of your grievance?

If something is impossible, then I want Physical proof of such.

“Since my grandparents didn’t commit suicide, I have no Free-Will” this isn’t going to cut it for me.