How to get more from ILP

How to get more from ILP
(lessons from my own mistakes)

As posters on the ILP boards here’s the assumptions I’m going to make:
You want to engage in philosophical debate with other people.
You want to learn some philosophy from other people.
You want to teach your own understanding of philosophy to others.

Given this; my suggestions (in no particular order):
No matter your expertise you have not considered everything. Research the topic you are talking about, even if its just a quick scan of websites about the subject. This will give you some valuable background knowledge and a shared vocabulary with the other people on the forum. Saying that, don’t underestimate the worth of ‘the great dead philosophers’ and proper contemporary philosophy.

If you believe you have a greater understanding about a topic than someone else, then demonstrate it. But, be aware, the only way you will be convincing is with good and well presented argument, ie, by teaching them. If you are simply saying that such-and-such is wrong, or such-and-such is obviously the case without explaining why, you may be fulfilling the desires of your own ego, but you aren’t helping the person in question. Patient instruction will result in better arguments from people in the long run, and a better experience for everyone.

Write in good informal english. This includes some kind of punctuation and paragraphing for ease of reading. You should use an english close to the written standard so that people can read your posts easier, especially if english is not their first language. This does not mean you need an academic (or poetic) style to post, just that your language is clear.

Similarly, your arguments should be reasonably structured. Remember that an unsupported opinion is worth absolutely nothing to someone who doesn’t agree with you, and it means even less to someone who already does. Be prepared to defend everything and anything you type with solid and reasoned counter-argument, and if you don’t want to do this, then simply don’t post.

If your post is less than 2-3 lines long then it probably does not include enough support or reasoning to be a good argument. Ask yourself, ‘why should anyone else believe this?’, ‘what assumptions have I not mentioned?’, etc.

The opposite and less common problem of posts being too long should also be kept in mind, keep arguments focused. If a sentance is not geared towards getting your central point across then you probably don’t need it. If your digressions are so interesting you just cant bear to leave them unexplored, then just start a new thread dedicated to them and get more focused replies.

Your ego is not linked with what you type. In this fancy cyberspace land we are all just avatars of real people and its easy to forget (or sometimes hard to imagine) that these posters are real folk. Don’t treat any attack on your beliefs or arguments as an attack on you personally, and likewise, attack only the beliefs and arguments of others.

Be honest. If you are not sure of why you believe something, then state so. If you are unfamiliar with the direction the topic is going but still want to continue then warn the other posters, and request clarification on certain points when you need it. There is no shame in ignorance, only in unwillingness to learn (and teach).

Don’t post when:
You are angry (that is not to say you should be emotionless, but keep if focused to the argument and ignore the poster themselves).
You have not read and considered all the replies in the topic.
You don’t want your opinions on the subject to be attacked.

These suggestions are not to be rigidly adhered to, and they’re not an attempt to legislate, but should be used as general guidelines for people who already want to debate, so, go get some philosophy done! :smiley:

Anymore helpful hints to newbies and vets? Any dispute or correction to the stuff already here?
cheers!

oreso

all the things you suggested belong to the ‘help suggestion’ not ‘philosophy’ because you have not said anything philosophical.

we are here to win arguments, not to get others to understand our interpretation of Nietzsche. arguments is the essence of philosophical TRAINING.

but if you write too much, people won’t be bothered to read it.

We appreciate your suggestion. why don’t you be a shining example of your suggestions and act it out.

You too PoR,

Especially that part.

That was almost and Oxymoron? You are telling him, that telling someone something is wrong, is wrong?

Philosophizing on “How to get more from ILP” I would say is not wrong, but I can understand that people might find the thread here a litle redundant or malplaced.

Maybe not “How to get more for ILP” but rather “How to get the most out of Philosophy in this context”. And maybe not comming forth in this manner saying “such and such is good” but rather talk about how one should go forth to get the most out of Philosophizing in a context like this.

The “rules” on boards like these are often set by what toleranse the majority has for loose talk and how good it is moderated by the staf running the place.

Should a board like this conform to it’s users, or should the users be formed by the rules of the board? I found the resent sticky to be a good post. There is something for everybody, and that is what I like about this place compared to other sites. I can write something serious if I want to, or just hang out when I have some spare time.

But the one thing that drives me away from forums most of the time is the level of noise. Redundant off topic chatter that does nothing else then to fill space, the tendancy that threads go of topic very quickly etc. Basicly when a discussion forum becomes a chatboard.

So if I should give any suggestion (as the thread wants me to) to people on this board:

Keep redundancy and noise down, and keep posts where they belong, but hasn’t this already been said?

Oh the irony of my post.

But to the point again. Philosophizing in a text based context like this can be difficult, because the nature of the subject calles forth many types of people whom have several different views on what philosophy is. And I feel I se many prowd people here that sometimes hold back because they are afraid of actually admiting their ignorance. As “oreso” already mentioned, there is no shame in ignorance. But people should not be afraid to post in any sence. Even if they are rambling in the night just before sleep.

So for the non-practical oriented suggestion: Don’t be afraid to get your hands dirty.

Nothing major I could think of. I think you’ve put it quite perfectly and eloquently. Thanks for that post. One minor thing I’d like to request: we can get annoyed once in a while, can’t we? I think if we are going to post with a heart at all, we must be allowed the expression of dismay, annoyance, surprise, just like we are allowed the expression of appreciation, awe, and admiration towards our fellow ILP philosophizers. Yes?

Thats why I cleared it with the relevant authorities before posting.

Winning the argument and helping others understand it should be one and the same. This is not the I Love Rhetoric forum after all. If you legendary folk are trying to sharpen your skills without helping others, you are going to run out of worthy opponents.

I can’t speak for others but although incredibly long posts do dissuade me, mostly its poorly written and formatted ones that make me groan. All I’m suggesting is that a few meaty paragraphs is preferable to an inscrutable aphorism.

I already try to of course, so I thought I might as well share the love. :smiley:

I’m finding it difficult enough to produce guidelines for forums, and thats all I’m interested in. I dont think generalising the content will help the message. :confused: but I’ve clarified the disclaimer a bit anyhow.

Sure! The guidelines are only for people who already want to have good debate, not intended to be rules for everyone all the time.

The amount of noise and off topicness doesnt bother me personally (i just ignore it), and thats a matter for the moderators anyway. We cant legislate here.

Cheers!
I’m not saying folk should post without emotion, but forums arent a good outlet for expressing anger, it just causes more personal attacks. If its a cheerful kind of anger which just focuses you on replying as well as you can, thats great, but no argument on here is worth getting bitter about or worth insulting another forum member (with the intent to anger them in return).

I’ve added some caveats and corrections from the feedback, let me know if i’ve missed something or you have something to add,
cheers muchly!

99% agreement from me, but then no real surprise there.

I will quibble a bit on the ‘research’ front though - in my arrogant/lazy “better to speak from the heart than the book” way - I think that if you’ve got a brain and an imagination of your own, then don’t smother it with a lot of regurgitated mush from the net. I thought the whole point of philosophy is to realize that nothing is set in stone - so one person’s opinion is pretty much worth exactly the same as another’s - even PoR’s - which brings it all down to the igenuity of its support and presentation.

For me at least it is the process of philosophic thinking that has become the thing of benefit - which is writ large across the synapses - not so much the resultant theories, which are by default writ in water.

Anyway - noble sentiments oreso, but doomed, I fear, like earlier itterations of this topic, to fall short.

Tab.

Hi

People come here to make themselves feel good. They rarely enter into any true debate. People come here to put up halfass arguements and pathetic reasoning and never listen to the other side. But I do wish your assumptions were true.

EZ$

One should learn the rules before they endeavor to break them; ultimately they must be broken if people like me are going to have any fun at all. Words like research, focus, etc., are preconceived notions, qualified by quantity, and therefore relative. Who’s to say when something meets any of the above criteria?

But it’s a useful set of tools.

Agreed! Although, what I was saying is not about “anger.” I think it is silly to get truly angry over online discussion of any kind. Occasional insults :stuck_out_tongue: , recalcitrant behaviour, annoyance, dismay expressed in regards to a view or opinion, etc. Hey, it happens.

Anyway, cheers Oreso. Or should I say, vive le ILP!

You are all wrong for posting in a philosophy forum about something being wrong, and then posting again to tell someone that they are wrong for posting in this thread. :laughing:

Anyway, apart from joking. The thread was OK by me.

I think there’s more to debate than presentation or else so many philosophers wouldnt agree.
Also, why post from your heart, when the book says it better? The contents of your heart dont spontaneously appear, so you might as well credit your sources where you can, because certainly, others will (“bah! this is just X argument, heres the refutation…”).
Its a pretty minor point though, worst case scenario we’ll have people with a better understanding of the history and language of the topic which they are about to revolutionise with their new and supreme ideas. :slight_smile:

The process is important, but its not ‘the point’ for most people. Besides, my advice is about improving the process, if i actually wanted people to learn something i’d tell them to stop wasting time in forums and read something! :stuck_out_tongue:

hey, if it makes even one person stop and consider their post and then rewrite it in some sort reasonable and readable form Im happy, and if not, its been kinda cathartic anyway. :smiley:

My assumptions most definitely arent true and thats part of the problem, but the people reading it may well think that they are and then inadvertantly follow them. :smiley: Obviously if people really dont want to debate, then its not aimed at them.

Of course its going to be self-enforced if at all, thats taken as given. We wont have ‘debate police’ :stuck_out_tongue: and I’d be pissed off if someone tried to counter-argue by bringing anything like this up (though not if it was just a suggestion apart from a proper attempt to counter-argue).

Cheers again everyone!

You heard the man people - Don’t think for yourself. Just read about thinking for yourself.

of course hes all righ…

he is posting his philosophy on the behavior and characteristics of the …

…ilovephilosophians?..maybe…i love philosophers…

the posters

‘Thinking’ i have no problem with, but you might aswell think something new and interesting, and unless you are familiar about the subject you are thinking about then you’ll have no idea if you are. :smiley:

ilpers?

Thank you Gobbo. I don’t like that PoR guy.