Human Perspective, Relativity, If a tree fell in the forest

The Human Perspective

I am writing this post in response, partially, to another thread, where it was questioned whether or not anything else would exist if we did not. Or, how do we know, since we couldn’t be there? Well, I’m no experienced philosopher, so I don’t have the tools of the logical arguments and reasoning of past philosophers on the subject, nor do I know whether it has been argued before.

The human perspective is tricky. It’s tricky in that it’s the only perspective we’ll ever know (excluding any metaphysical experiences, which is apparently still an experience that takes place in the mind, and therefore, human). The reason it is tricky is because our “common sense” tells us a lot of things throughout our lives, and a lot of those things are misconstrued by our limited perspective. Let me explain.

When the majority of people here a large number, such as in the millions or billions, it is literally impossible for them to comprehend this number. One thousand, one million, one billion, these words don’t have any meaning to us in a literal sense. Our brains don’t deal with such numbers, so it only makes sense that we don’t understand. A human life span is 100 years. Most of us only travel a very limited distance in most cases. Most of us don’t have millions or billions of dollars, and even if we did, the numbers that describe money are much different than the numbers that describe people. If you’re not sure what I mean, I strongly recommend watching the Penn and Teller’s Bullshit! about numbers.

So obviously it’s very difficult for us to view things outside of our limited perspective. We can’t imagine life before or after death. We can’t understand huge numbers and their implications, and it causes some serious flaws in our understand of what is really going on. Let me use an example.

In another thread, I presented the assertion that if human beings never existed, all of the atoms in the universe still would. There were a few who argued against this notion, saying that there is no way of knowing. It seems this is the exact same question as “If a tree fell in the forest and nobody was around to hear it, would it make a sound?” This post will answer that question.

Instead of stating that nobody was around to hear that tree fall, let’s suppose that there wasn’t even a creature on earth capable of hearing. Would that tree make a sound? The answer is a resounding NO! I know that the tree would not make a sound if it fell. How can I be so confident in this answer? The explanation lies in what sound is.

When a tree falls, the reason we hear a sound is because of the waves knocking air molecules around until those waves vibrate our eardrum and are interpreted by our brains. For sound to exist, there must exist the being who can receive that vibration and process it. Otherwise, the waves going through the air are just that: waves. Sound cannot exist without a being receive those vibrations and process that information. Sound is a word that the human race has defined to describe the action of receiving and interpreting these waves. Without beings that can hear, sound does not exist.

The same can be said for what a tree “looks like.” If there was nothing in the entire universe with the ability to “see,” what a tree is would be completely different. It’s all relative.

The reason I bring this up is because although it is impossible to escape our human perspective (not up for debate under this thread!!), it is possible to realize that these limits exist. This realization is one that not many will ever make, which is unfortunate, because it seems that without it, it’s much more difficult to see a bigger picture.

My brain gets sidetracked a lot, excuse the lack of organization / jumping around to various topics…

d0rkyd00d:
The human perspective is tricky. It’s tricky in that it’s the only perspective we’ll ever know (excluding any metaphysical experiences, which is apparently still an experience that takes place in the mind, and therefore, human). The reason it is tricky is because our “common sense” tells us a lot of things throughout our lives, and a lot of those things are misconstrued by our limited perspective. "

K: Perspective is all we have and all we are.
We have 7 billion people on earth and
7 billion perspectives.
And every single perspective is right because how
do we prove any given perspective is wrong?

We can’t.

Kropotkin

maybe…i understand what you are saying, but i just hav some questions i guess…

color is a quality given to an object by those who perceive it to be that color…now what if an object were to be in existence that was invisible, no color or anything…we might say that this object is nonexistent if we cannot see, hear, smell, taste, or touch it.

does that mean the object does not exist…that the color and shape and smell and texture and weight and all other physical properties do not exist because we deem it to be non existant?

or does that objects color, shape, etc. exist outside of comprehension?

Agreed, that’s what I’m sayin’! :wink:

Goose, could I suggest this? If we say that the color is a subjective reality, then we automatically deny it being the result of sensory data, and therefore fall into idealism. For to say that the “color” is a result of the world being percieved through sensory perception is to say that it isn’t contingent to a specific subjectivity. The subjectivity does not cause the sensory perception, but is a result of it, then.

The problem left to deal with is the fact that color blind people see colors differently, and therefore are not experiencing the same sensory data that another is experiencing when seeing a color, if we grant the above conclusion.

Another point is that physiologies differ however slightly and therefore data interpretation must be slightly different; what then is the nature of the supposed “objective” sensory data, as above, if the interpretation produces a unique description?

To resolve these dilemmas, we cas only say that the being of the “color” is nothing more than the presence of a consciousness to a series of appearences, none which indiciate anything else other then themselves. In language, the concepts are related through analogies and do not need to be exact. For example, I can reference a shade of one color, which accordingly shouldn’t be the color if the color is determined by a strict and specific wave-length, one which would be different if the shade changed.

Obviously there was no “blue” in the first place, and therefore we eliminate the chance of the reality of the color being only only sensory data, but also of it being only a subjective perspective.

Submit to a catch 22 if you cannot overcome it, I always say. (and the French existentialists say the epoche is impossible. Ha!)

By doing this we can homogenize the phenomena of being in general and require no substantial identity for an object experienced. A thing is a sum totality of appearances and reveals nothing “behind-it.”

There is nothing outside of text that can be reached with text, but what is in text is not the truth.

If you Kant resist, accept the noumenal fundamental a priori structures to reality and be prepared to chat with people by the names of Parker and Harris.

Ineffable? It does not speak of existence or non-existence. That’s the word I use sometimes to describe things that are beyond comprehension.

But that does not help much in determining whether something exists or not.

There are things in existence that are invisible: radio waves, microwaves, etc. Now, simply because we cannot perceive them, does that mean they do not exist? Well, we know these things exist, because we can measure and use them; however, it safely can be said that they weren’t always a part of our reality.

Just as if something exists that has not yet been discovered, which is seemingly inevitable, it is not to say that it doesn’t or can’t exist, but rather it is not a part of our reality yet. Relative to us, it doesn’t exist until it’s discovered.

Are you saying that for sound to exist there must be a listener, yet for a listener to exist there must be sound?

i would say so. but tell me how do you define “exist”? something knowable? or something not knowable?

For an object to exist it must affect my survival.

lol, i like your definition. Then what happens, after you die? Does that mean objects will cease to exist? And what happened before you were born? Did the objects exist? Or did they exist simply when you were born?

The objects before my birth affected my survival in that they affected the survival of my forefathers. When I say survival, I mean survival of the genes, the pattern. Objects after my death affect the survival of my children, who are partly me. Heaven and hell do not exist because they don’t affect my survival directly enough; they only affect it through humans.

So if you have no children and you die, then what does that mean for the objects? Do they cease to exist? Since they dont affect your genes anymore…

p.s. I’m sorry for the lack of imagination on my part, i’m very limited, as some would say.

Um… I don’t know. Good question. Maybe I still exist, in parts, like, if I had brothers and sisters say.

Oddly put, but yes. We defined what sound was, and under our definition, sound requires a listener and something making the noise.