Hume's dilema

Hume says:
Let us become thoroughly sensible of the weakness, blindness and narrow limits of human reason…

Yet how can he do that? Where does he form this conclusion? If Hume is right then he is faced with the liar’s dilema, for if he is right then neither he nor myself could become THOROUGHLY sensible, while being at the same time BLIND and narrow?

Sensationalist contrarians.

Baneful.

If you use reason and try to act out of reason, and are reasonable, you never get a sense of all that is beyond the limit of reason. How often do you see people try to apply reason to human behavior when clearly the bulk of it is motivated by emotions. So, I think Hume was pushing an emotinal consciousness where each person bravely considers the tools of reason against the task of ignorence, and then takes the only other available tool we have on hand, which is sensitivity to options, to insight, to imagination, to the outrageaous, and the impossible; because there we may find new applications for reason. We experience life with our senses, and we order reality with our thoughts, but the stage between these two, where we wrestle with unknowns, and fears, undefined problems, and problematic definitions, in our subconscious minds is were the great work of mankind is always done on a budget. Give it time. Let it off its leash.

Having knowledge of your flaws means you can proceed in spite of them, but with respect for them and of them. I seem to recall that it really comes down to being reasonable, and using common sense.

Is it not a greater dilemma to be paralyzed by your faults or limitations into complete inaction?

Hume is not saying personal reason, but human reason. The flaw is the expectation that reality behaves in a reasonable fashion according to what we know as reasonable, and it never does. Reasonable was not the same after Copernicus, after Darwin, or after Freud. So logic does not lead us to the next great discovery, but can only point out the failures of the current theory.

That is a gross misstatement, imho. The point is we will never have KNOWLEDGE of the future, knowledge implying certainty. There is no telling what “reality does” or will do, that’s the point. Not that it “never does” what we expect. I’ll be damned disappointed the day the sun does not “rise.”

Reasonable men make a theory, generate a hypothesis, test it, and make a claim predicated on probability from the evidence they have found. Then Imp comes along, calls it psuedo-science, and then pointlessly attacks your assumptions.

That’s how it works. :wink:

Hume claims we need to trust our senses, and our faculties of reason, while remaining skeptical of the certainty of our “knowledge claims.”

-Imp

Will you see the sun again, Imp?

Also, assumption are not truth claims. Assumptions are just that, assumptions.

assumptions masquerading as godly truths and “laws” of science?

-Imp

Are you saying that you being deceived so as not to trust your sensory perceptions? How is the consistency of the past not a probable indicator of the future? Again, science does not claim to have knowledge of the future, only a probability of events.

but if you think fire will not be hot tomorrow, I encourage you to stick your head in your oven and let me know… :wink:

Recognizing the shortcomings of the human faculty of reason doesn’t require the same kind of objectivist certainty required to take the stance that no knowledge is beyond the scope of our ability.

Hume can be seen as taking a bit of a leap of faith in assuming the objective reality of human reason’s shortcomings, and with this in mind I think I see the point of the original post.

If I may step outside of Hume’s intended point and take a stab at why his claim is more desirable than the alternative even if it is a bit hypocritical:
In the context of scientific inquiry, an approach gathering knowledge that is characterized by a degree of humility lends itself far more to thoroughness and double-checking than an overconfident approach.
I actually agree with Hume and think that the expectation that a lump of cells that evolved to fill a niche in Earth’s environment can digest and synthesize data in a truly reliably objective fashion is absurd. But I think that these kinds of points are really moot, because when we bump up against that which we’re not equipped to perceive, it’s likely that we won’t even realize it. Worrying about it doesn’t get us anywhere in life as we experience it, though, so we have to treat the fruit of thoroughgoing humble endeavors within our narrow scope of experience as if it is objective and universally applicable. As far as we’re concerned, anyway.
That’s probably a dangerous slippery slope, but it’s the way quests for knowledge have always proceeded (as far as I’m aware). We improve upon the old paradigm, tout the new one as Truth, and hold fast until further refinements come along. I just find it hard to believe we’re working toward objective perfection.

I’m pretty sure I’m not making any sense. Just kind of riffing at this point.

I think you are making sense. Especially about bumping into what we are not equipped to percieve which we do with moral reality all the time. As important, what we think of as logical is the way nature behaves; but much of what nature does we do not see the logic in because of our own expectations of what is logical to expect. So, logic gives us the ability to check some things, and to organize our knowledge; but I doubt its use in much of a possitive and creative fashion since it leads us too much into preconceptions, and blinds us. Now, I might be able to support some of what I say from evidence from the past. It is naturally not possible to suggest examples in the future, but only to say that when new truths are discovered they come with their own new logic that immediatly makes sense, then, and not before.

there is no logical reason to believe that the future will be like the past…

-Imp

Becoming sensible about the weaknesses and limits of human facilities. How would that be part of, or related to a liar’s diema? Wouldn’t it instead be the opposite?

It’s disturbingly amazing that so many have posted already in the way that they have, to the simple and obvious basics quoted from Hume about human reason.

I have to disagree with this. Repetition is the rule, the same cause having the same effect indefinetly. What I don’t think one can argue for is an indefinite sequence based upon what seems logically true today. It is easy to misunderstand all the many ways effects can become causes, or the way slight changes can ripple through systems, or the playing out of unforseen consequences. So, while we can say quite reliably what will happen tomorrow that does not give us the ability to predict long term. Even the geological history of the earth shows that change is the norm, and some times, catastrophic change at that. Even where a certain being can be predicated, if we are not here individually or as humanity to witness it, it will have no meaning; and for us, meaning is the essential quality to being. No us, no it.

As Imp alludes to here, and as I have alluded to in the past, Hume is, at bottom, attacking not reason itself, but rationalism. Hume practised an approach that is still used today - professional politesse. Hume clearly wanted to be accepted by the academic community. So he pussyfooted a little. All the while writing an iconoclastic theory.

He is claiming limits to human reason - and not that human reason is entirely impotent. As an empiricist, which he more or less was, he claims that reason alone means nothing - this in contradistinction to the rationalists. Reason must be applied to data gained through the senses - at leat indirectly - to be of any use. No one trusted his senses more than Hume - he had nothing to say without sensory data. These are the narrow limits.

Hume removed time from empiricism. This turned out to be a rather odd feature of his thinking, but it got the job done. I don’t think he is strictly correct in doing so, but he is close enough that it does not affect his major idea - that we cannot know God - particularly in a Cartesian way. It was Descartes, most immediately, but therefore also Plato and Aristotle, that he sought to answer. Within this context, the provided quote is not problematic.

“believe”? meh.

so, how is it that “logic” is a valid basis of criticism for empirical claims of probability? It seems logical criticism would be for “known values,” and theorems, a’la math.

Again the claim Hume is critical of is claiming to have “knowledge” of the future. I really doubt you could find source on Hume where he would state its irrational to have any expectations of any outcomes, only that it is a logical error to claim to have knowledge of the outcomes based on the past experiences. It is not irrational to make the claims in and of themselves.

ie, it is both rational and reasonalbe to expect, within probability, that the sun will rise tomorrow. It would only be irrational to claim I know that it will rise tomorrow.

if by rational you mean follows the rules of logic, it is not rational
if by reasonable you mean follows reason i.e. rules of logic, it is not reasonable

“within probability” - you mean a blind guess about unseen events that may or may not occur…

we do not agree.

-Imp

I didn’t realize a LINK was the same as SOURCE BASED TEXT… :wink:

You’ve misapplied Hume to “all scientific methods” for his criticism only over pure reasoning about cause to effect

in reasoning alone

Most of what Hume discusses is the relation/connection of cause to effect. necessary/contignet/analogy etc

and then…

pts 1 thru 4, plus the section I bolded are what underscore the notion of repeating the results, isolating the cause, etc. Hume is laying THE FOUNDATION for the scientific method, not being critical of it as you suppose. He is being critical of “thought experiments” devoid of connection to the ongoing, rigorous application of method.

concludes

the reasoning must hold to experience [aka evidence]

SECT. I.

Of Scepticism with regard to Reason.

and boo-yah

coherence and the senses

he goes on to qualify that, greatly.

concludes

thus “knowledge claims” should be “it appears” the “data suggests” there is a “high probability” or a “degree of certainty [oxymoron, imho]”. Those would be, according to Hume, both reasonable and rational claims, based on the conditionals outlined above.

“That there, is nothing in any object, consider’d in itself, which can afford us a reason for drawing a conclusion beyond it; and, That even after the observation of the frequent or constant conjunction of objects, we have no reason to draw any inference concerning any object beyond those of which we have had experience;[/b]”

nothing is “reasonable” or “rational” in drawing inferences beyond it…

-Imp