I am still alive (and ought to count myself lucky for that)

Yes, I think. I am here. They are here. Their presence bothers me because it seems to deny mine. But all of us are here. Laughing. Crying. Waiting. Hoping. Dancing. Writing. Complaining. Being happy. Being unhappy.Working. Resting. Using our brains. Not using our brains. All of them trying to reach out to…what? To something, to anything. All of them need to reach out to something, or they would go insane. And I? O you nihilist don’t need to reach out to anything. There is no difference between being dead and alive to you!! So they say, so they think.

I know an absolute truth :
[size=200]
I am alive.[/size]

That means, I am surely not dead. I have never known any other situation, but life. I will never know any situation, but life. I will never know any other world, but this one. And I don’t have to complain about it. No irony. I haven’t any reasons to be ironic. No more. Not believing in anything, among all the things men try to believe in (myth, religion, science, philosophy,art), I can be sincere all the time. I have no particular reason to tell a lie, neither in my name nor in name of some “belief” of mine. And I haven’t surely a particular reason to go on…Strange. I look at them (people) from my window. Some seem to be saying: “Jump! Jump from there guy! You have nothing to lose!”. Some seem to be saying: “Don’t jump! Don’t do such a thing! You are very, very young (twenty-three). You have a lot of reasons to live!” They are absolutely convinced that their advice can help me. They are absolutely right that any of us can find a reason to go on living. In fact, most don’t. What I see is that men never have a reason to live, they are always searching for a reason, always, untill the end. At that point, all men are equal: all searching for a purpose, a meaning, a reason to bear taedium vitae, bore, sadness, loneliness, depression, prejudice…At that point, atheism is no longer a wiser option that theism or deism. A man who says that the meaning of his life is hedonism, or pantheism, or darwinism is not very different from a man who says that the meaning of his life is theism. Because all of us (I mean all of us) always find reasons to justify our beliefs. All of us always find our beliefs the beliefs which are right. All of us think it is pretty fair to tell our fellow men that they are wrong thinking the way they feel. And maybe we are wronger than them. Maybe we know the truth and they don’t. Or maybe no. Who knows? Do you know? Of course not.

So, I woke up this morning as I have done a lot of times before. O yeah, my mother seems to be sick. That makes me remember another absolute truth:

[size=200]I will die sooner or later.[/size]

How? Suicide? I think it is excessively obvious, all people think I am about to commit suicide, so why have I to do that? :wink: Disease? Age? KIlling? Don’t know for sure. And don’t want to know, believe me. Because the fact that I am alive is much more interesting that the fact that I will die. I am still alive and ought to count myself lucky for that. Indeed? Why? Do I hope to find a meaning? Do I hope to live eternally (go to Jesus’ Heaven?) Do I hope to find happiness? Of course not. So, [size=150]why?[/size] I look at my mother, I am so profoundly afraid of losing here. The pain will be enough, I am sure. I look at the faces of street people. I look at the cover of a book about Any Frank. And suddenly, there is no meaning but there is something which I can’t explain. I think of KIrkegaard, that lovely and depressive guy, I think of Thomas Bernhard, fighting till the end, feeling happy for waking up every morning. And I think of me. “No excuses, Fabiano. You are young but your soul is old. You are already dead!” The ones who think that way couldn’t be wronger. I don’t have an old soul, my soul is young, is fresh, is alive. And I am not dead. If I don’t kill myself immediately, it is not because I love life and hope to find a meaning to live it. It is because of something which I can’t explain. Thomas Berhard didn’t have a reason to live, he didn’t love life profoundly. But he never gave life up. Never. My mother won’t give her life up untill the end. Why would I do that? O yeah, I know that I live in a sick world. But who is to say me that I have the right to give this fucking world up?

Thank you for the attention.

Best regards.

Well, thank goodness!!!
You are on to something there man!

Now, that’s the spirit! See how writing this out makes you feel better?

Theadlerian: Why is that? When we are locked inside ourselves we fester needlessly, but when we share it, the demons in the pressure-cooker slowly release themselves easing our angst and pain. I know the obvious is just plain “venting,” which is cathartic, but why here? Why here, in a place of strangers? When I write my innermost feelings here I know that in this cynical, cynical world I may certainly be judged as a foolish woman - so why is it that writing it down has helped me to find the release that I so desperately need?

psyque: you can answer that too - and, btw where the hell have you been? How’s the kids? How’s the weather of our northern neighbor been? I will catch up with you on a pm when I have some time. I have left (ILP) twice only to find myself back writing again… and so it goes.

Fab - thanks for saying “don’t leave” in the other thread, but as many times as I’ve tried, I probably won’t anyway. I reapeat… I’ve tried :unamused:

Bessy,

In the early 90s I had an evening radio show. I loved techno and alternative rock and used to have a great time communicating and entertaining people on the radio.

However, previous to getting on the radio I was a bit shy. A friend was on the same station before me and got me a show. As soon as I hit the microphone I was not shy anymore. I could speak fluidly and not make any mistakes and I was funny.

I attributed this to two things: the first thing was that I was wearing headphones and could hear myself speaking. I later learned that wearing headphones and hearing one’s voice is a treatment for stuttering. The second was that no one could see me speaking so it was just like speaking to the sky.

In a way, it is the same here. You can write and view your posts (like headphones) and you are anonymously speaking to a cast of faceless nobodies. I could be eighty years old and say psyque could be a thirteen year old girl. Who cares? So, you can say what you like with little consequence. Where else can you do that? So, one can have full expression.

Another idea could be that we do not have like minded people to be around. The net allows for people of a like mind to be in a kind of intellectual commune. If you like sci-fi then you can go to the sci-fi board and the people there will know what you are talking about and won’t laugh at you. You then feel better and find that you want to go back.

Yet another, it could be that since we are all locked into our heads we feel lonely. When we share ideas with others we give them a psychic chunk of ourselves. This means that we can join with others through others. If you say, “hey, remember when I told you such and such,” you are really getting the person to recall a chunk of your thoughts. This means that part of you is in them. Meanwhile, it can be a bit disappointing for a person to never remember anything that you have said. It’s like you don’t count. Being talked about and remembered is a way to exist beyond oneself.

Frankly, I like the last idea the best, but who knows? This kind of stuff is unquantifiable and that is one thing that I love about psychology. It’s beyond empirical study but not beyond theory.

What do you think about what I wrote?

Hi Ad!

I loved your thoughts and believe that most of them were right on. Your last paragraph fits me the best as well. I do admit because of my relationship with my husband that I am very lonely. I lead a seperate life and I have a secret. I love him - but am not “in love” with him anymore - but that is written down in another thread from back in April.

I am quite open in my life in venting with “real” people and have many friends, but I have said things here that I could not say to them. I fell madly in love with a man after being married for 32 years to another - shouldn’t have happened; wish it hadn’t, but it did. I don’t know you Ad, but I can tell you my secret. I can’t tell my girlfriends, my five children, my brother, sister or exended family. We are all so close, but telling them I am in love with another man would upset and confuse them. I have a decision to make. Period. But in making this decision, I have to weigh all of the consequences. I am not sure what to do.

I fell into ILP by mistake looking for something else. I know nothing about philosophy, and most likely don’t belong here debating heady issues. But since I’ve been here, I don’t crave being with him as much. It has filled the void that he/we created. It is a place where i can say how isolated I feel in my crowded world. There is NO ONE I can say this to but you (and 2000 strangers) but it has helped me to work through the pain of it. And it is deeply painful.

I cried my eyes out for months and months until I started to write on
ILP. I have acted silly and friviolus here to cover up the truth - my behavior has been regretful because I am not taken seriously here. Nevertheless, I am better and have found peace and catharsis in my life. Your advice in the other post was good, but it is not an issue with sex. It is an issue with my heart, and it has been forever taken.

Thank you for writing to me and answering my question.

Well, I am now taking you seriously!
Sounds like you have a lot of tough choices. Any thoughts?

Hi Bessy,

Things are going well over here. It’s finally feeling like summer for more than 1 day in a row…Family is great (I’ll tell you something important about that in a PM). I’m going to try once again to cut down posting; I tried to limit myself to one or two threads, but there always seems to be some entity that sucks me into a repetetive cycle, even if it’s only one thread…I’m like a vortex magent…or maybe I’m an unconscious vortex chaser… :sunglasses: But summer is actually my busiest time, so I’m trying to limit myself (also, my fucking space bar on my laptop broke! I’m ruining my arm trying to use this modified thingy I’ve got happening, and it takes 4x’s longer to write (hit the button 4-5 times to make it work :imp: :imp:…I have to find a repair shop that won’t keep my laptop for over a day…I’m THAT dependent on it… :blush: ).

About your question, I’ve got two more thoughts: 1) These forums provide “distant intimacy” b/c of the anonymity. We all (aside from people with certain disorders) NEED intimacy/bonding–we’re apparently born with that need (one theory for why babies are born looking a certain way, and why they can smile from birth (pre-natally actually), as opposed to giving us the finger :wink:–>to help make parents/others want to take care of them and affiliate with them (oxytocin is possibly also linked to this). Anyway, these forums are a way to connect/affiliate. It’s easier than arranging to go out with someone, and it’s guaranteed to “answer” when you “call.” Also, when else do we get to rant or share or whatever without being interrupted? Even a therapist is likely to chime in at “the wrong time” now and then (depending on the orientation, probably too often). But here you can communicate ANYTHING at ANY TIME to a captive audience (whether they read or not). And yes, you take a risk of being “judged,” but a) so do you when you share with ANYBODY, b) as with friends, you know (or hope) that at least ONE person will connect with your post, whether it’s to give advice (I personally think most advice is not so useful) or some form of support/empathy/understanding/sharing, and c) even if a) happens, so what? The words might sting, but there’s no other consequence–no betrayal, no using it to take advantage of you, no looks the next time they see you, etc (as long as you’ve maintained anonymity). You get all the benefits of b) with none/little of the crap of a).

And I think that’s important b/c all therapy, regardless of orientation, IMO, involves CONFRONTING THAT WHICH YOU FEAR AND/OR THAT WHICH IS CAUSING DISTRESS/DISCOMFORT, whether it’s someone with a phobia of elevators getting into one repeatedly, or someone who hates their mother being able to admit that to themself (and tolerate the “guilt” that may follow), or someone who’s very insecure deep down allowing themself to face that insecurity and all of the psychic junk that is associated with that insecurity (which is why the person represses it and uses a whole host of conscious/unconscious defenses to distort reality and interact with their environment in such a way that helps prevent having to confront those fears/insecurities/whatever). Writing out those things in black and white to an audience helps you confront those fears, as long as you’re honest (as you’ve found). Bessy, I’m guessing that many people do NOT do what you’re talking about here, at least not to the extent you mention/experienced. Many people live FANTASIES online; it’s a stress reliever, just like any escape/avoidance such as drugs, movies, affairs, etc., which IS therapeutic in a way (though these escapes can bring about MORE troubles later, of course…). But it often just re-inforces the defenses someone has erected b/c their “fantasy persona” online will not allow itself to look at the REAL ISSUES/FEARS that plague the person. Often, “revealing” one’s life is done through the lens of fantasy, whereby the “spin” put on the story–no matter how apparently “shameful” or “hurtful”–also allows the person to “buff themself up”…it contains something that helps ease the “pain” of re-telling the story…a POSITIVE point, often disguised as semi-negative or quasi-humble, sometimes unconsciously, sometimes consciously so that it doesn’t look like that’s what the person is doing; it’s self-protective and totally natural…but it will always stand in the way of REAL insight or REAL change (at least BIG changes), b/c whatever that positive element of the story is “protecting” is what needs to eventually be confronted in order to really address it.

It might feel good to share such pseudo-negative stories, but I don’t think it’s really “cathartic,” thus no REAL CHANGE happens in such people. I’ve seen your stories and PMs, Bessy. I see the TRUTH and HONESTY and PAIN and FEAR in them. I see you REALLY putting yourself “on the line” here and really taking a big risk by REALLY expressing/exposing/examining your foibles (not just to others but to YOURSELF). And I think THAT is a big reason you’ve experienced SOMETHING BIG here. I don’t think so many people really get THAT type of effect. I think most people benefit for the other reasons written in this thread (not that there’s anything wrong with that).

Just my thoughts…

PS

The “fantasy” or “persona” need not be as extreme as a very shy/passive person becoming “Captain America,” or a 50 year-old man pretending to be a pre-teen girl. I mean that most of us play some kind of roles in our life, and/or deny/repress certain parts of our being. Online, most people do the same thing, but to a greater extent. REAL change, whether in therapy or in “life,” almost always involves truly confronting such denied/repressed/distorted thoughts, feelings, beliefs, memories (about ourselves and the rest of the world).

Again, from my own experience (I wrote to vortical in her existential crisis thread), MY moment of change came when I FINALLY went overboard in the “honesty” department and looked at things from a perspective I had NEVER adopted before–one where I took FULL RESPONSIBILITY for all the shit in my life, even though realistically it wasn’t ALL my fault; but as long as I could look at what OTHERS did, I was able to avoid admitting 100% MY foibles. Even 90% wasn’t enough. I needed 100% to get CHANGE…And of course, change isn’t permanent–I can and do slip back into old patterns, like most people. But at least there’s a place for me to slip back OUT of those old patterns…

Ad:

After everything I’ve said to you that means a lot to me. I appreciated your thoughts as well.

psyque:

Do you have any idea how lucky I feel? I know the cynics of ILP will find that last sentence comical, but I am being more than a little sincere. Because of your profession you both understand more than most here in the area of human behavior/reactions etc. But I find also that you are both engaging and articulate not to mention funny - As you’ve noticed I am drawn to “funny.”

I have been to therapy - but nothing has given me more of a pychological hug than you. And now Dr. Theadlerian is being supportive and kind. I find it overwhelmingly meaningful and haven’t felt this way for three years. Hiding something this huge can make you feel like exploding inside - I went on a plane back in January and, while most people had white knuckles in their fear of flying, I was hoping that it would crash. I still don’t know what to do, and I may never. But, the cynics can sneer all they want at my burst of honesty today because I am finding some peace here with you. Thank you for that.

Fabiano: I know this thread is about you, but, as you can see, it is why I understand your feelings of hopelessness.

Theadlerian,

I have some things I wanted to say to you about what you had written to me… I am in a rush out the door, but will be giving you some feeback when I have more time later today. :wink:

Love you Bess xxxxx

I’ll leave you to the two doctors (god only knows why?) You’d probably do better with Dr Satanical… :smiley:

All I will say is: If I were in your place, I would gradually tell the people around me – especailly my children. They may not like it at first, but they’ll appreciate you trusting something so personal with them. Of course, this could escape and get back to my partner, so I would prepare to tell my partner also.

That’s what I would do… but I don’t know your situation… it may be more difficult than that?

Don’t worry, dear.

Don’t make me laugh… :unamused: :unamused: :unamused:

Km,

It is too complicated… and if I go on and on and on I will end up feeling needy again. You can’t have everything (or anyone) you want in this world. Maybe having someone loving me that much is enough.

ps LoveU2…

Hey B,

You know how I say advice is usually meaningless (I’m talking about SERIOUS stuff, not advice re. whether it’s better to put 1% or 2% milk in the coffee… :wink: )? Let me just give one piece:

Although I’d normally say “fuck the cynics” (meh…I’ll say it now: "fuck the cynics and cowards who will never ‘find themselves’ "), please just keep in mind the consequences of revealing “too much,” especially in public but even via PM (I seem to have read something like that recently… :wink: ).

Bessy:
" I fell into ILP by mistake looking for something else. I know nothing about philosophy, and most likely don’t belong here debating heady issues. But since I’ve been here, I don’t crave being with him as much. It has filled the void that he/we created. It is a place where i can say how isolated I feel in my crowded world. There is NO ONE I can say this to but you (and 2000 strangers) but it has helped me to work through the pain of it. And it is deeply painful. "

this ILP has had similar effect on me, mostly last year, and I was in a very similar situation like you, so I understand what importance this site can have for one. it is more than therapy, because as I said it before, it is more authentic than a psyhchologist, the people here, i mean. still have some distrust in all psychologists, since I know it is their job to cure people and they take money for it even though they are honest, they do it out of self-actualisation motive.

I can say I was healed by many ideas on these forums, although I cannot say I am cured or will be.

now, it came to my mind when you said what had heppened to you, can a person fall in love only if one allows him/herself to be able to fall in love another person (besides your “old” partner), or can it happen anytime unawares? I am asking just to learn what I can expect on in my life, if one can fall in love only on condition you count on the fact you can fall in love? you said you didn’t inted to fall in love, how come it did happen? need one be in control or not at all?

Ad,

I thought that that was an interesting analogy about your radio experience, and I do see the correlation –one of my kids used to stutter, and I sure wish I had known about it.

Also the dynamic of speaking without any other influences plays a factor. There are elements of the relationship that are missing, which can be a good thing. In other words, many of our prejudices such as looks, age, or sexual attraction are missing. For instance there are very few chances that I get to know such a variety of people, and if you are sexually attracted to the way someone looks it gets in the way of the nitty-gritty of conversation. You are more interesting in looking at someone’s body or beautiful eyes than seeing their soul. I think it would be a good idea if young couples were required to get online for a year and just talk. (it would build up the sexual heat –that’s for damn sure) I can’t go into detail but all of what I fell in love with was cerebral and being online with him was part of it. We had a working relationship that required that, then it became personal and the rest is history.

I think people are transparent here after a while and what I mean by that is that you get to see who they REALLY are. Guess what? At first I thought you seemed cold, but then I read a few more of your posts and I realized that you are funny and quite warm.

(I should put these embarrassing compliments in pms – men can’t take the heat of the compliment kitchen… and I am sure you will be teased with that last one).

If I put my husband next the man I adore you would all laugh. My husband is a little hottie and treats me like a goddess. The other guy is overweight, bald and moody. But love is love, and who knows what makes it happen?

Funny that you mentioned the importance of people having interests in common – I have found the opposite… I am fascinated by the differences of opinions from people like Dr Satanical – and in my little slice of suburbia would never have the opportunity to dive into the mind of someone so foreign to my world. To me that is a growing experience.

Theadlerian:

Profound. I am copying this and printing it out. ”Part of you is in them.”

Better than sex, doc.

Bessy,

On the flip side, your problem for as confusing as it sounds is not out of the ordinary and it’s really nothing to be ashamed of. I’m sure that when you got married you did not plan to have all of this happen. That would make you sinister and insane. Really, I’m sure that all of this stuff just happened like a little snowball rolling down a hill that turns into an avalanche. It’s not shameful, since you did not mean for it to happen.

In my personal life, I have known several women that married guys that seemed stable, and usually had some money, but turned out to be boring. The women really wanted a fun bohemian, but only realized this after the kids came. In my book, once the kids are on the scene it’s more about them and less about you. That is unless there is violence or implacable hate going on.

Anyway, I recommended that these women go to couples therapy with their husband. If that is too corny you should get a book on it. One behavioral therapy for couples that I like has the pair remember what they did and liked about each other when they first met. Then, they are assigned to do those things again. Too simple? Maybe, but he and you do have the same elements as when you first met.

Meanwhile, what do you like about the other guy. Does he know that you like him and if so have you had sex? If you did, then have you also spent quality time with the person.

I ask this because I was once in a brief and extremely weird relationship with a woman that convinced me that her husband was a mean worm and that I was the best guy she ever met. She was part latin and part Polish and looked like the kind of woman that I always dreamed of. She was an aerobics instructor that was very bright, liked the arts, and she even enjoyed Star Trek for gosh sakes!!! Never met a woman like that.

Anyway, over time, I got a weird feeling that she might be playing me in some way. Due to circumstances that I had nothing to do with, she took the MMPI (personality test) and she said, “Dave, (my name) what does sociopathic tendencies mean?” and then while my brain fell out of my head I said, “oh, it’s no big deal, ha, ha, ha, ooooow…” To make a long story short, the more time that I spent with her the more that I realized that she was not really a nice person at all.

In fact, like all of her rich friends she wanted to have a male gigolo to supplement the passion that she did not feel for the rich guy that she had married. I learned this at a party where all of her friends had taken their male companions too. Many of the women there even worked in the field of psychology and where the head of organizations. Everyone was smoking weed. I tend not to do drugs and was shocked at the massive hypocrisy.

So, I thought in the beginning that I was going to be the White Knight saving this sexy perfect woman and then in the end just wanted to escape to the hills and never see her again.

Long story short, is this other guy really great or what?

lenore

You should see how much money I have not made over the years. I get what has amounted to an allowance from the state. I rarely think about money because due to poorness I have been conditioned not to. I’m almost not joking.

Lenore,

Thank you for writing. I do agree that there are many who would never understand what “spilling” this has meant to my psyche. If I understood your question correctly, I think it is ALL about self control. I spent a month on an old thread about this so I won’t go into details but, when you’ve gone as far as telling someone you are in love with them - you’ve had the affair.

I think we, as responsible people, DO have control, and I think that sleeping around is sleazy, irresponsible and unfair to your spouse. I would get the divorce first.

That, my friend, is my dilemma.

Bessy,

Just read your post. One of my big things is humor. I just can’t stop in real life. I love to make people laugh. I am always coming up with goofy anologies, observations, and word play.

I knew a guy in prison that was very bright, I mean super bright, that had a sense of humor that was like lightning. He said, and I believed, that he didn’t even stop to think about what he was saying. He had such and ironic wit that it was great. I loved that guy like a brother. Humor is like gift.

Better than sex, doc.

Talking and sharing things and ideas is very exciting to me. I have known women that where very good looking that I had no sexual feeling for because their were boring or passionless. For me sexual attraction has a lot to do with how interesting a person is.