Hi,
I’m quite impressed with the lyrics of the song ‘Seeing is believing’ by Mike & the Mechanics:
I believe in Jesus
his father’s only son
I do believe he sees us
with the loaded gun.
I believe in the magic
Of the Mujahedin
I still believe in Daniel Ortega
the sun in Omega, the Lord of the Rings
I believe in most everything.
I believe, I believe
I have a friend in England
who says I must escape
the meetings of Mao and Nixon
it’s an old debate.
But I believe in the magic
of the King and the Queen
And I still have a young rebel’s sympathy
radical symphonies still have a ring
I believe in most everything.
I believe
I fear this muddled thinking
has to go some time
I fear this sinking feeling’s
not the best of signs
I feel I’m in trouble
as the Eighties close
I look to the future
I’m frightened, I’m scared U suppose.
You may think it’s foolish
that I still believe in love
You laugh and you sneer
-it’s cruel
It’s what I’m thinking of.
I believe in the magic
in the power of the soul
one to one’s my equation
that carries the nation on to the goal
we’re all brothers and sisters, I’m told.
I believe, I believe, I believe in love
do you believe what you’re seeing
Oh I believe in love.
I believe in love
I believe, I believe,
I believe, I believe, I believe in love.
On my journeys, I came to the conclusion that much of what pre-modern societies have done – and that over thousands of years – is to build on tradition, whether there was an assumed historicity or not. The question actually doesn’t apply whether a tradition is historically viable or not, it is just a question of where one began. The important question is where we are going to. There are numerous traditions that ‘still have a ring’ and there are numerous ideas that inspire, have something magical about them, on which we could build. We must all start somewhere.
I feel that ‘fear’ of the future and see people attacking the past. I think that the problem lies in the lack of readiness to build concepts for the future based on past traditions, to move on in the same tradition, following the red line that our ancestors have started. The insecurity that we feel grows out of a lack of direction and the awareness that we can’t go back. Even if we want some of the good thing of the past, we need a concept for the future to enable us to gain these things. We can’t stand still, and technology cannot give direction – except in an ecological catastrophe.
The more people have their traditions taken from them and only be given materialist economics in return (globalisation), they will lack direction. “I fear this sinking feeling’s not the best of signs, I feel I’m in trouble.†This is a common feeling amongst people today and their awareness tells them that they need direction – but not ‘down’. The Fundamentalists will fight tooth and nail to protect their traditions, they overdo the historicity for that reason – and in some ways it may be right to do that. I feel their direction is backwards and will fail in time, but at least they have a direction for the moment.
“I fear this muddled thinking has to go some time†- so do I. I think that many ‘modern’ thinkers are so muddled that they get caught up in detail before they have set their course. Without a goal, we will just rotate, stagnate and get nowhere. Whilst doing that, we’re just as likely to destroy our planet or sink into global conflict. If love is truly the basis of all religion – or the golden rule – then it is time to start building concepts for the future on that principle.
What I want out of songs is not philosophical reflection, but quite the contrary - pure human intuition and emotion.
Bob wrote: The more people have their traditions taken from them and only be given materialist economics in return (globalisation), they will lack direction… Not strictly true, not for countries like Japan anyway.
“Directions” can easily be “found”, because the world is without directions, if you know where I come from.
I’m afraid the the red line of tradition is damaged beyond repair. Our storytellers, our priests and shamans, now wear three piece suits and sit in corporate board rooms. The Matrix is real. Only it isn’t machines that have enslaved us, it’s the people in the 15 passenger business jet that is flying over your head at this very moment.
Ultimately they will fail, and far more quickly than did religion, but we’re still a long way from seeing light at the end of the tunnel. We’ve just begun the long journey of self-made slavery. Perhaps another century, maybe two.
I see us today as maintaining the burning ember. The spark that will lead to new flame is still far into the future.
Your song has brought to mind a piece of poetry. I’ll bring it along tomorrow.
Lacking a rapid advance in technology or a major paradigm shift, it won’t take another century for consumerism to fail, and following that, the corporatism that is contingent upon it. Earth’s resources simply cannot sustain the rate of consumption for another 100+ years.
Not trying to be too depressing here but I don’t think there is a choice. We speak of love but I don’t think we are capable of it to the degree that would be necessary to change things.
There was a song made out of the following from the Book of Ecclesiastes .
Ecc 3
A little further on we read:
It seems here that the suggestion is that collectively man continues in these cycles. The whole book of Ecclesiastes suggests that life is meaningless in this way and it appears all to true to me… So I don’t really believe that we can expect it to provide “meaning” in a deeper sense but just temporary transient meaning. It seems tragic but all the horrors that have happened will just happen again because collectively we are what we are and what occurs is a result of man’s collective “being”.
I think the real value of the individual that comes to understand this is in the ability, along with with kindred spirits, to serve as buffers when these transitions begin. They see it for what it is and do not get caught up in it. This gives them the freedom to consciously act in the cause of the good rather than just being caught up in the blind reaction of the phase we are passing through.
My concern is if there will continue to be enough of this minority. They are really disliked by all sides since they don’t appear to be taking a side. To retain such conviction really requires personal courage and remembering the big picture.
I feel for what you are saying and just convinces me more how essential this minority will continue to be as mankind continues moving in cycles in conjunction with nature’s way.
I would agree, but that would sound too fundamentalist, ‘rooting’ for the 'end of the world. The rate of consumption will necessarily slow in the face of diminishing resources, but the power groups will hang on as long as they can. One of man’s strengths is his adaptability. One of man’s weaknesses is his adaptability. I don’t even want to think about what our great-grandchildren will consider “normal”. I question whether we even have the models to predict the ‘break point’ and that’s why I would extend the time period. Our flexibility allow’s insanity to continue for astonishing periods of time.
Oh, BTW, the current rate of consumption won’t begin decreasing for quite some time. In fact, there will be an increase in consumption over the next 50+ years as more so-called third world areas industrialize.
It is the distribution of consumption that will change in the short run. The industrialized west will be forced to consume less as the poorer countries demand their ‘fair share’. The standard of living enjoyed by Europe and America may not be so enjoyable as it it is lowered to bring parity with the rest of the world. All in all, the west is about to begin living in ‘interesting times’. It has been easy to become spiritually bankrupt in the dazzle of material wealth. Hopefully, we can find our way back when the gold turn’s to lead. We will. We always have, but there is going to be much suffering and misery along the way.
Bob you are being a little naive there. Suicide rate can be extremely high when a culture is at its extreme. Take 19 century German literature cult - Goethe’s Werther killed god knows how many. My point is, globalisation doesn’t strictly kill cultures, this is highly dependent on different countries. For some, cultures and traditions will surge as a consequence of countering mass foreign inflows. The Japanese culture has already to a extent, inluenced western culture, which was the culture that transformed the Japanese society in the first place.
Direction, what direction? People can always find directions and they are likely to change constantly. The world isn’t robotic; our society isn’t a linear line.
The World Health Organisation says:
“Suicide is not only a personal tragedy, it represents a serious public health problem, particularly in the WHO European Region. From 1950 to 1995 the global rate of suicide (for men and women combined) increased by 60% (1). Among young and middle-aged people, especially men, suicide is currently a leading cause of death.
According to the latest available data, an estimated 873 000 people around the world, and 163 000 in the European Region, die from suicide each year (2). While suicide was reported to be the thirteenth leading cause of death globally, it was the seventh leading cause of death in the European Region. The highest rates in the European Region are also the highest in the world.”
This is hardly the result of a thriving culture that is ‘pro-life’.
I suspect that the suicide rate in any society is an indicator of the amount and rapidity of change within that society. Man is extremely adaptable in the face of what to do next. What is often forgotten or ignored is that our ability to swiftly adjust to what, isn’t necessarily followed by the internal demand of explaining why? Intellectual understanding and adjustment can, and sometimes, must happen quickly (the tsunami victims?). The emotional and intuitive understanding of why can take years or may never happen within a lifetime.
It is here that the value of tradition and ritual is found. Our traditions and explanations of why are the ‘rock’ we cling to in troubled times. Our traditions evolve slowly for a reason. They can only change at the pace of emotional comfort we can deal with - regardless what is happening in the external world.
Bob, you understand the need and the problems associated with a lack of traditions. We are living in such a world. I share your frustration and concern. Here we are back at square one. Can Lazarus be brought back? Do we even want to? Is the rot and decay of being dead too long made it impossible for Lazarus to be a settling force in the world?
The way I read the book, life is portrayed as not yielding the desired outcome, even as a fruitless adventure if we do not find our destiny in the will of (the mysterious) God. All attempts to otherwise understand what life is about are, according to Ecclesiastes, a vain attempt to give a different meaning to a gift than was intended.
You may be of different opinion, but my experience tells me that we are given sentience to recieve insight about that destiny, to develop empathy and altruism and enable ourselves to develop further. The disclosure of visions and other spiritual experiences guide us along the way, developing our awareness until we can one day gain insight of a completely different nature. That is the dream of Jeremia, a Jewish prophet. It is something that I also hope for.
The cycles of genesis and ‘tohuw’ - lying in waste - may come and go, but the spiritual man will help those who are prepared to listen to overcome those cycles. He will do so by giving them direction and he will offer the vision of a future based upon a tradition that has developed values and which people still regard as important.
It may be that the language is very metaphorical and that those people who regard science as the only Gospel there is will ridicule it, but the fact is, science is only an artifact, an instrument to ask the right questions. Science presents more questions than it answers. The answers people need to give meaning to their lives, to find direction and purpose can’t be found in science, so, although I am fascinated by science, it is secondary.
Exactly, it is a case of remembering the series and not overvaluing the innings (I’ve played cricket). But that does mean that I have to understand myself as a link in the chain, one of a series of people who in themselves are a tradition. Each of us take the helm for a short time and have to keep on course, even if the helmsman before me went off course.
I agree but also know that a quality of consciousness is necessary in order to learn and not just begin turning in circles because our imagination and vanity allow us to believe we’ve actually understood something. How many would even understand the distinction being made in the following:
The same idea is in Ecclesiastes. The idea is to make use of life rather then it just continually making use of us. But as soon as action WITH non-identifying changes into action WITHOUT identifying the good of it becomes lost.
Ecclesiastes 12 says to “Remember your Creator” and put life into perspective. It is action WITH non-identifying acknowledging the Pearl of Great Worth.
But this is taking people on the same level. I enjoy chess and played enough in the past to have a U.S.C.F rating of 1911 which puts me a little below expert. I could study and easily become expert but don’t have the desire to do so. I don’t have that competitive urge at this time.
As far as links in the chain of quality of chess expertise, there is no way I could grasp what Kasparov understands over the board but at the same time, a beginner could not grasp my understanding.
Human “being” is like that. An ancient law states that the higher can understand the lower but the lower cannot understand the higher. People naturally think they can which is why there are so many modern religions.
A new female student of a truly great spiritual teacher finally got the courage to approach him and express her fear. She said that she felt so inadequate in his presence and didn’t know what to do. He looked at her and finally said in effect: "Quite true, compared to me you are sh-t and me compared to some others am also sh-t. so you see, we are the same. She left confused but returned with a big smile.
Gradations of human being is not competitive since it exists as a whole as in Jacob’s Staircase. All the steps on the ladder are necessary for the ladder to function as intended.
Well Bob, since you’re into quoting at the moment, then let me be as well:
WHO says: “… The highest rates in the European Region are also the highest in the world.”
What exactly is your definition for culture? If it refers to something far back in history, then your point is seemingly plausable. however, cultures have been changing right from the very begining of mankind. This is exactly what I meant by “people will always find ‘directions’ for themselves”. By saying that younger Europeans or Japanese lack culture, you are assuming that the definition for culture as some stationary object, which originated at exactly which historical period would you say?
My point so far: this kind of definition for culture is invalid, hence your point about suicide is implausable. The reason why some youngsters commite suicide can hardly be summarised as “lack of culture” or “lost in touch with tradition”, because we can never be in such situations, for our existence alone, makes culture and generates tradition. Time will alter them all for later generations, so they won’t end up wondering if they should be born in their elders times.
I can’t say if you’re troubling yourself by feeling that way, because if it is causing you troubles, then effectively, it is a trouble for you. However please note, this kind of trouble does not exist for many, either it exist for many who killed themselves.
Yes, it is clear that we want to. It doesn’t matter how long we have been dead, everything happens in its own time. It’s not about length of time but rather about timing. This kind of realisation happens in a moment. Just like that. A moment ago you were dead and in the next moment, you are alive. Very much alive. Awakening happens in a moment when the timing is right, in its own time, but the timing is up to us. How badly do you want it? That is the question. If I ‘got’ it, you ‘got’ it, bob, nick_A, everyone, if all of us get it…then Tao would be manifested. Then the world would naturally be a very different place. The world is merely a reflection of our collective hearts. Heaven and hell exists within your own heart, suffering exists within your own heart, war, hatred, greed all of it is inside of each and every one of us – we just have to awaken to that fact – peace on earth can happen in an instant. It is spiritual – it has nothing to do with time.
Culture is something that were learn from agri-culture and apply to society. Just as the cultivation of a field brings forth the fruits of the sown seed, so too should cultivation of society help us reap the advantages of our social intercourse. Those who regard themselves as cultivated should be able to continually bring forth the fruition of sophistication and civilisation.
Surely in a society that doesn’t produce children, or in which the children do not want to live and would prefer death, there is a question to be raised. Such behaviour suggests that there is little promise for young people, little hope and no perspectives which could encourage new generations to take the helm. I feel it is because the compass is broken or even completely missing, not because the younger generation are incapable.
We have to admit that the influence on young people nowadays has never been so big and comprehensive. In my youth the biggest influence on my life was the family, the neighborhood and the employer. Comics and cinema followed, then radio and books. I’m glad that books did have some influence - I knew many people who didn’t read if they could help it. They thought they were looking ahead without knowing anything about where we had come from. For all they knew, they might have been moving backwards. In fact, I believe that some did.
I believe that education is important for orientation in the future. However, there is a sea of knowledge on which we could be lost if we had no direction, but rather just sail on aimlessly. The Dark Ages were an era when something similar happened for completely different reasons. The result was devastation which has been blamed on those who sought direction, but it was the uncultivated chaos of ignorance that set the stage.
A 60% rise in suicides coincides with the unprecendented loss of tradition in an enlightened Europe, the overturning of all customs and habits, the beginning of omnipresent subculture, the rising trust in materialism, and rising ignorance about what the politicians were doing in other countries in ‘my name’.
I know and share your concern for the lack of practice of tradition, but is the hopelessness that precipitates suicide caused by a turning away from tradition or is it our inability to assimilate the accelerated changes in our traditions? In some ways, I have trouble explaining all of hopelessness and despair as a lack of tradition. I haven’t a good feel for this, but it seems to me that tradition evolves, and that the rate of evolution may be happening at a pace not easily taken in. I’m not quite convinced that we live without ‘traditions’, even though I might not recognize today’s traditions because I’m still growing accustomed to yesterday. Have we truly lost our way, or could it possibly be our inability to keep up?
People never sail on aimlessly - we always look for what we want. You see someone wondering around, his current possesions can no longer satisfy him, so he’s looking for new things. This is the underlying drive behind the development of all aspects of human society. We humans are destinated to embark on the journey towards satisfaction, hence satisfaction is the ever-presenting direction… Are you with me?
A goal alone can’t gurantee happiness, getting the goal can. Those younger people who have the suicidal tendency, are they getting what they want? Obviosusly no. But why? Would you say that that’s because they don’t know what they want? And you subsequently compare the situition with your own, in which at least you know what is it that you want? Hence, you say: they are “lost”… Could this be what you mean by any chance?
If so, this is the way I see it: you are happy because your want is such that you can get what you want. The new generations, they don’t want what you want, just like you don’t want what your grandparents want. Society is changing, old tastes are going and new things are in need. But we have to create this taste first, this is the fundamental task. Would call this taste a “direction” then? If so, no point for me to object.
Tentative’s point, I think, points to the fact that at the period when new “want” is being formed, some would feel “lost”. Now, would you consider my above saying an objective insight into this whole matter?
Have we truly lost our way, or could it possibly be our inability to keep up?