Ich und Du

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
21

a day off…

As noted, we have three identities… Ich: I…du: you…
and es: other… and depending on who we are talking to
or the situation, we are one of those three…

Ich… the I in all of us…
du… we treat du as we treat Ich… the honored you…
es… the other… this is where we badly treat others…
by considering them other… or it…
people who mistreat workers or in my job, grocery
clerk.. a guy swearing at me for doing my job…
that isn’t treating someone with decency or respect,
which is the hallmark of du…
it is turning me into es, the lowest step or stage in identity…
other or it… denigrating me… turning me into es…
which is exactly what we do when we denigrate or
belittle another… turning them into es…
and how exactly is this turning others into es or other,
right, decent, honorable, the old golden rule… treat others
as you want to be treated…

There are all kinds of examples of turning du into es…
the negating of races… blacks are lazy or shiftless…
Jews rule the world… capitalism treating workers as
disposable goods… communism as treating the workers,
also as disposable commodities…
rejecting ''WOKE"" values of treating people with decency
or respect or with value, that is turning people from du to es…

but what about the ism of conservativism and liberalism…
not the political party, but the ideology itself…
conservatives believe in a hierarchy… that there is
a higher from of life going down to the lower form of life…
it is in this lens of hierarchy that we can transform people
from du to es… conservatism thrives on turning people from
du into es… rejection of identity politics… that is turning
people from du into es…for the fundamental aspect of people
is their identity… we see ourselves in terms of identity
Ich… and we see others in terms of positive identity… du,
but in rejecting identity, gay, trans, black, minority… that
rejection is taking people from du to es…

but why is that ok to deny/turn people from du into es?
by what right do we have to denigrate or deny others
their own, rightful identity? What gives us the right to
turn others into es, when we ourselves, demand that
we are treated as du?

So, wherein lies the justification to turn others from
du to es? either individually or collectively?

so, how do you treat others… people as du or
others as es? and why?

Kropotkin

22

and all of this comes down to what is the point of
existence… for treating people as either du or es,
does reflect on what is the point of existence…

I have reflected on and then also rejected most
of the operating principles that we use to explain
the point of existence… the point of existence isn’t
about getting to heaven… nor is it about the gaining
of wealth or power or titles or material goods, or even
as many today believe, the pursuit of fame…

the point as Nietzsche pointed out, was the journey
from animal to becoming human… to mistreat people
into becoming others, that is dehumanizing, devaluing
people… that isn’t becoming human, that is going the
other way, to becoming animal… and treating others
as animals… the quest to become human is movement…
and that is what is makes us liberals instead of conservatives…
there is a very strong movement within conservativism to
remain the same, to stay in one place, to follow tradition…
conservatism rejects movement and change…

but the world to a liberal is movement and change and
becoming… the fight, as one particular fight goes, is
to treat people as du and not as es/other…
and how do we treat people as du and not as others?
as people having value, just by being people…
the Jews or blacks or minorities, simply treating
them as having value and worth… as we ourselves
would want to be treated… we slip so easily from
turning others from du into es, we don’t really see
that anymore… and so, one goal is to become aware…
or as the kids say, ‘‘WOKE’’… to see people as people,
not as a means to something else… to make profits
or becoming ‘‘better’’ citizens for the benefit of the state…
or to be seen as es, just because one is black or Jewish
or a female or gay/trans…

We pay a lot more attention to the actions and practices
of others and not enough to our own actions or
practices or values…

Ich… du and es… let us become aware of how we
treat others…

Kropotkin

23

and we return to another theme developed in
another thread… that of relationships…

we can have a relationship within two of
the three stages… Ich… du… we by their
very description, I and you, we can have
a relationship between Ich.. and du…
but the third state is es… other, object,
how do you have a human relationship with
the other? They are by definition, other…
there is no real relationship between es
and the other two… Ich and du…
to devalue others, as capitalism and communism
and other isms, is to reduce or even end that relationship
of Ich and du to es/other…

to treat others as human, require us to approach them
as du, not as es… and the basic need of all humans,
including you, is through the relationships we have…
that is the human path… to create connections and
relationships is what makes us human…
and keeps us being human…
if you see some homeless person on the street
and think to yourself, they deserved this…
that is turning them into es… other… and there
cannot be a relationship with others if we don’t
treat them as du… relationships are the heart
of the human experience…

Kropotkin

24

Wir? ich du es character character character. Unable to say ‘wir’ on it’s own. Required 15 characters. :smiley:

25

Dear Sir, I always appreciate a note from you…

I confess that I am rereading ‘‘I and Thou’’ by Martin
Buber… Kaufmann translation…and I am riffing on
the title ‘‘Ich und Du’’… I read it decades ago and
for some reason, it felt like the right time to reread it…

In the book, ‘‘I and thou’’ Buber spends a lot of time
working out the god aspect of ‘‘Ich und du’’ and
as you know, I am not religious in any way, shape or form…
but this format of ‘‘I and thou’’ lends itself to some
interesting aspects… I have written about ‘‘Ich und du’’
in reference to conservativism… as soon as I have some time,
with any luck tomorrow, I will dive into ‘‘I and thou’’ in regards
to liberalism… most likely as an entire thread… I hope it
has enough ‘‘juice’’ to carry it to some interesting conclusions…
but we shall see…

I hope all is well with you…
as for me, I am retiring in December… I’ve had it and can’t take
this shit anymore… but more on that later…

as always, your devoted friend,

Kropotkin

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