Ok, here is the premise of this argument: First of all you must accept that Christianity is correct. That being said we know from the Bible that God is all powerful. Yes? Good.
Now if God is all powerful and has therefore created everything, i.e. universe, angels, humans, etc… he must have also created Satan. With me so far? So if God is all powerful he, (yes he, if you think he’s a she then you obviously don’t believe in Christianity and you should stop reading this), can do anything.
Now ask yourself why anyone who knew the truth, let’s say angels, which Satan was at one point, would challenge him. What would the benefit be? Hard to ponder eh, considering God could just wipe Satan from existence. So I have a hypothesis: God is really a big bully. Yes, I said it. And here’s why it makes sense:
God is really a jerk. He likes making good people suffer, (nice guys finish last, allowing people to be born in third world countries that can never offer anything but a life of misery, allowing people like Paris Hilton to be successful even though she looks like an FAS child, etc…) So one day, somebody comes along and says, “Hey God you really suck. You’re not fair at all. Some people have all the opportunities and others get the bottom of the garbage can. Why are you such a mean jerk?”
Let’s call this challenger Satan. Now, because God is all powerful he doesn’t like being challenged. So he casts Satan away. Satan being the only person, or creature if you prefer, who ever had the guts to stop being a yes man and actually challenge this big bully who thrives on the misery of others. Now here’s the tricky part. God, because he is so powerful, creates this lie about how Satan is really an evil being who loves to see people suffer and wants nothing more than to take control. Obviously the second part is warranted if God is really a jerk.
So my question is this: If these arguments are valid, and God is all powerful, then it reasonably follows that Satan could be a ‘good guy’ who really cares about our well-being and God has created a lie in an effort to make us stick with his crap and not reject him for the loser he really is. Agree or disagree? I would love to hear all sides… so long as you follow the rules of the Bible. That is the constraint of this argument.
I don’t believe in christianity but can I play anyway ?
For Satan to exist obviously God would have to exist. Satan or Lucifer as he is referred to in the bible is Venus the bright and morning star. The bright and morning star is also a term used to describe Jesus in the bible. So, from very simplistic deduction one could say that Jesus is Satan/Lucifer.
In the bible Lucifer and his ban of merry men used to do god’s dirty work. Perhaps Lucifer saw the light and realised he was being used, decided he’d had enough and left his employment. He would then be deemed a traitor to the cause etc., and made out to be the bad guy.
I think it stands to reason that if Satan/Lucifer was an angel rather than a god, he isn’t going to be as powerful as a god and god would have little to fear from a mere angel. So it makes one wonder what all the whooha is about Satan/Lucifer really is. I’d go with the good guy vote if the scenario about leaving god’s employ because he got sick of doing his dirty work is correct. Does this mean that Satan was one of the first Freethinkers ?
Such was the stance of the Gnostics, but gnostic christianity proved a poor framework for population control, so it was all but squashed but Constantine before and during Nicea.
Of the two charactures from this all time bestselling work of fiction, the antagonist is easy to spot. All you have to do is read it.(read it, of course, without some hack minister trying to twist the words via metaphore to mean whatever suits their fancy - and their coffers fancy)
How many hundreds of thousands of people did ‘god’ slaughter within those pages? And Satan? I don’t think he kills anyone.
Who of the two strives to keep man blinded and ignorant, enslaved to his will? Which offers freedom, choice and knowledge?
This touches on one of the core reasons we Satanists use Satan as our archtype.
Hello Crooked Mouth, I think that you want to accomplish a couple of things:
To discredit god (assuming he exists)
In discrediting god, your aim is to demonstrate how silly it is to believe in god (assuming he exists).
Below I have paraphrased your post:
If you believe in free will (which is a concept found in the bible) you must accept that Satan’s challenge of god is plausible. Why? If you could not choose wrong (but only right) yours would not be a choice at all–free will is eliminated. Is this logically acceptable to you (and others)?
If you accept that line of logic we must discuss the following: With the existence of free will could is it possible that all would choose “right” over “wrong” or good over evil?
In fact, if we accept free will there is another possibility: we must challenge the existence and place of god in order for free will to be a reality. In other words: if we cannot choose to disbelieve in god’s existence and place (omnipotence) than our freedom of choice is endangered. Would this be agreeable? Or is my logic flawed? I’m honestly curious.
What do you base god’s desire to make people suffer on? You asked to argue this biblically… so, where in the bible do you find that god makes you stay where you live (and not emigrate), or that someone’s “niceness” causes them to finish last? Or that man’s lust for a Paris Hilton is inevitable? If free will is accepted, than all these are mankind’s choices.
Perhaps god desires that mankind choose good for themselves… He does not create misery but instead man creates misery for himself. We can go into a lot of stipulation about god. Where do you find the biblical references that Satan was EVER a yes man?
You asked to argue this biblically… Here goes:
If you ask to argue this biblically, then where is the lie? God punishes angels (like Satan) for their folly (challenge of god). Why would angels have folly? They too have a choice… to believe, to reject. This reinforces my earlier point.
Does that sound like a good guy?
You asked for biblical guidelines… please argue the bible. Honestly, I think that if you want to argue god’s own “jerkyness” it be best to argue it strictly in logical terms and not in biblical ones.
Can I add something: Largely, the biblical satan is not one who typically goes about killing and slaughtering innocents. The biblical satan is about temptation to do wrong. Satan tempted Jesus, Satan tempted Job to lash out against god. Satan tempts mankind into turning against god; however, the actual acts are done by man.
Dr. Satanical,
You forget that Satan slaughtered Job’s family, sheep, etc. So, there is atleast an example here. Besides, god forbids him to harm the innocent.
Though I agree with you that the bible is fiction (the inconsistencies speaks volume about it being MAN MADE) but if we argue the characters within the bible we should remain withing the contructs of the novel. Don’t you agree?
Ok, Thirst… if that is your real name… Bart Simpson… oops, had a Simpson’s moment.
Seriously,
You seem to forget something here. IF we must refer to Job then let’s. One of two arguments can made about this:
God is only equal in power to Satan, or
God makes a wager with Satan and uses Job as a pawn in a game where the outcome is known before it starts.
If you accept #1 then you must reject the Bible and thus any argument made beyond this no longer follows the rules of this argument.
If you accept #2 then God is the jerk I claim he is. Job was loyal before God made his life a living hell by wagering with Satan on Job’s loyalty to God. So why does God have to prove anything to Satan? ISn’t God all powerful? If so, why does he need to place wagers with creatures, i.e. Satan, whose powers are inferior to his own?
Thirst, assuming you are not an illogical thinker, you must believe #2. So what does God or Job gain by this wager? God can reasonably derive pleasure at the torment of Job. But what does Job get out of it? His animals slaughtered, his sons murdered by God. But wait!!! I thought one of Gods commandments were, “Thou Shalt Not Kill”. Strange that God himself feels no remorse in killing Job’s family.
You may argue that God has the right to kill when he sees fit, but if you do, then God necessarily becomes a hypocrite by not following his own commandments.
And if God is a hypocrite, then he is not the God of the Bible who is claimed to be never-changing and steadfast. Thus I do not see that you have made any valid argument against premise: God is a jerk. And I’ll even go a step further and say, “Not only is God a jerk, but he should be punished for crimes against humanity.”
But what punishment should he get??? I’ve already solved this problem: God should have to watch Dr. Phil and Oprah for all of eternity…
Even if you believe in Christianity, the existance of Satan is a contradiciton. I will try to explain this as easily as I can.
First of all, according to the Biblical version, God loves us all. Also according to the Bible, mankind is inheritantly sinful. God is also all-powerful, according to the bible. Add to that, the belief that God wants us to do “good” as humans.
So then tell me, if God KNOWS we are already inheritantly sinful, and he wants us to do good…why would he allow Satan to exist if God is indeed all-powerful?! The existance of Satan would only make it harder for humans to do “good’”, especially since according to “God” we are already sinful by nature.
Well you have three options: 1) God is not all-loving, 2) God is not all-powerful, or 3) Satan does not exist.
To me personally, Satan is nothing more than a myth.
I think the crux of this ‘problem’ is that if we assume that God is omnipotent, which according to the Bible he is, then he knows ahead of time what our fates will be.
Now ask yourself, as a logical thinker, why would anyone who claims to be a ‘loving-God’ create souls that he knows are doomed to eternal damnation? If you love something and can prevent it from harm, would you not absolutely choose this option? Thus either God is not all seeing, all knowing, etc, or my premise is correct: HE is a jerk! And people who challenge his authority, i.e. Satan, have real spirit, real morality, if such a thing truly exists.
Free-will aside, the fault of any of our damnations is that of God, because He ultimately has the power to stop us from doing wrong. If he lets us do it then he is also to blame because He created us. Standing on the sidelines is no excuse, especially when eternity is involved. Besides, didn’t anyone see the last episode of Seinfeld? We should arrest God under good samaratin laws and make him listen to bad jokes on the worst episode ever.
I recently watched the movie “Constantine,” I think it was called, and I really like the idea of it.
Basically this guy was denied entrance to heaven but at the same time Hell couldn’t have him. Somehow, if I remember correctly, its been a few weeks, he had a deal with God that would keep Hell of his back if he promised to ‘fight evil’ on earth for eternity. God had a wager with the Devil and each force had ‘agents’ (angles and demons) present on earth, who would influence the human subjects. Constantine had the power to see and interact with them, and it was his job to fight the demons.
His character was that of a cynical disposition. He drank and smoked heavily, and wasn’t happy most of the time. Yet he had these powers, he was immortal, and there was no mystery in life for him.
I’d expect a life like that to be pretty kewl. I don’t know what his problem was. (Reeves played Constantine)
This idea has profound implications which can be further addressed philosophically if one were so inclined.
Wait, why put free will 'aside'? Doesn't free will completely shoot down your argument, and isn't it something taken for granted as true by almost everybody (present company excluded)? I think it ought to be looked at very closely. Otherwise, you may as well say "Physics aside, designing a time machine is really very simple".
[Russian accent] “That’s what we wanted you to think.” Simpsons moment…
No, other arguments can be made… I’ll discuss yours first.
This could be argued if we remove ourselves from the bible’s perspective. You requested that we do not, so, we’ll leave that for a different thread.
Not necessarily, but I won’t talk about it in this thread.
This is a possibility… though if worded differently it could have a much more different effect: please read on.
To reword #2: How about god is challenged by satan and god, in his wisdom, uses the opportunity to shut satan’s trap by using Job as an example to satan and the audience–namely me and you (mankind)–knowing that Job would succeed.
This is done as a benefit to us… he beats Satan at his foolish game showing you and me (mankind) that it is possible for man to resist. I argued that satan is portrayed as the temptation and the point here is that no matter what, it is possible to resist and to maintain one’s faith in god despite personal trajedies.
The hero of this story, namely god, shows us how we can always keep faith in the hero, how we can resist the the villian–that is a possible gain from the wager for man learns by example. 2. Job’s faith is increased and his praises to god, his commitment to god is stronger than ever. His wealth is restored, his faith is secure. In fact, he can be sure that his family members that died are safe and secure with god in heaven (so the story would have you believe).3. God did not kill Job’s family… and satan’s destruction of Job’s family only secures a place in heaven for them. Thou shalt not kill is a commandment but free choice allows you to break it (so satan and man does–recall that in the story it was man that actually killed family/animals due to satan’s influence.
I don’t see god breaking any commandments in the story of Job. Man killed man… they were influenced by satan.
I think my arguments show that god was not a jerk here.
Summary: Two goals accomplished by god in the story: 1. proves that satan cannot outplay god and god is wiser. 2. Proves that humans have the capacity to resist the temptations of satan. Job’s story is the paradigm of how we should resist temptation (according to the story).
May I suggest you try not to argue this biblically? The notion of god is written pretty well in this book (even though it is fiction).
By the way… UCISSORE has a very valid point about “free will” aside. That’s kind of like saying “Alright, other than the roads, the aqueducts, public saftey, apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order … what HAVE the Romans ever done for us?”
Care to argue this free will issue Crooked Mouth?
By the way, I repeat, I am on your side CM… I just think that this needs to be argued fairly.
First: You can put free-will aside because the very argument of such a concept existing in biblical terms is bunk. Free-will necessitates that you have choice, an opportunity to do anything. The future cannot be known. Else, if the outcome is already determined how can I possibly have free-will? I had no but to fulfill my destiny, i.e. the predetermined future, and free-will then becomes nul and void.
So my point, using the Bible is to show that free-will doesn’t exist, contrary to what Christians believe. You cannot have both: either there is a fate, i.e. pre-determination, or there is free will, in which the outcome is unknown. But since God is all seeing, all knowing, and created everything, then the only free-will is that of God.
He creates souls knowing ahead of time that these souls will either be ‘saved’ or damned for all of eternity. Ask yourself this question: “If God created me, and his plan is supposedly perfect, and he created me with my fate already decided, how the hell can anyone say I had any choice in my own actions.”
Nelson says, “HA HA!”
Now point 2: I say again, God is a hypocrite, hypocrite, hypocrite! By the way, did I mention God is a hypocrite? Well he is. Hypocrite.
Thirst says that man killed Job’s family. Yes… but, who gave man the power and authority to do so? God! Therefore, since God has direct control and did nothing to prevent a loyal servant from suffering, He is at fault and therefore committed those murders by working through others.
On to another story in the Bible. Joshua and the Battle of Jericho. Wasn’t it God who told Joshua and his band of merry men to slaughter every man, woman, and child? Children? I thought Jesus said that the children were blessed? How could a child have sinned against God? This is called genocide, or at the very least murder. Who instigated this murder? God! And by the way… why does God need servants to carry out his evil will of murderous rage?
Can’t He just blink an eye or fart in his enemies general direction and do it himself. Must he make murderers of his own servants?
Finally: you claim that God used Job’s sufferings as an example to us, the dis-believers or even those who do believe. Dumb, dumb, dumb. (I think South Park did a song about this…) God doesn’t need to make examples of others. He can make lame commandments that can be changed to suit his own evil ambitions. Just make a commandment that says, “Thou shalt be loyal no matter what crap I allow other people to inflict upon you…” I don’t need examples, I need some F*&@ing consistency. God needs to make up his mind and stop being such an emotional Bitch.
Take that Thirst!
By the way, I really do value your opinion, I just disagree with your reasoning. And anybody who quotes the Simpsons must be intelligent. (I’m trying to stroke your ego a bit…)
I think God’s defenders here should look at the words attributed to Christ on the question of what it is to be a jerk. From Matthew 25:
Suppose we were to lengthen this list a little…add stuff like, “I was hacked to death with machetes, suffocated in gas chambers, swept away by tsunamis, ravaged by diseases, vaporized by bombs, etc, etc…and you just sat there.” An honest follower of Christ could only conclude that God deserves hell.
Hi Crooked Mouth, please remember that I am playing Devil’s Advocate (or in this case God’s). My arguments are theoretical… I don’t believe in god so don’t consider the following an endorsement of god. I’ve quoted (in relevant part) your statements below.
Argue this non-free will idea biblically (according to your rules). Show me where in the bible free will (the ability to choose) is not allowed. The notion of free will and god cannot so easily be ruled out. Why? Because god can know all the possible outcomes and not HOW YOU WILL CHOOSE only that ‘A’ and ‘B’ and ‘C’ are possible. Once you have chosen god knows that the next set of possibilities. He is not surprised nor is he involved (free will exists and god’s omniscient powers remain).
Essentially, god knows that if you choose A over B that the result is C and that if you choose B over A the result is D. Once you are at D or at C god can continue to see the options because he is omniscient.
Also, I must add that the notion of omnipotence is important here too… Why? God has chosen to to give mankind free will–to necessitate this he must not use his omnipotence to interfere with man’s affairs. Therefore, god can be omnipotent and omniscient given the events in mankind’s history.
Well, personally, I don’t think that god created me and I have asked these questions before. However, for argument’s sake here goes:
God created you, he gave you free will, in order for you have free will he must step aside (remove himself from the picture) so that you can choose to believe in god: the notion that god MUST exists removes free will since we have no choice but to believe. In fact, it could be argued that satan must exists as a temptation since god exists to tempt you to a “pure life” and satan to a bad one. Your fate is in your hands and god knows that X, Y, and Z are your choices… what you choose is your responsibility.
The only response to this is: “But I don’t even believe in Jebus!”
God cannot interfere with our choices as it would interfere with free will. The only interference I could imagine is that which would advance his vision of giving man free will and the ability to choose to believe in god.
I am with you… but the problem with your premise all along is that by saying god is a jerk what you are really saying is god exists and I don’t agree with his politics. As such, I would argue that the politics are not so bad but that I don’t believe that god does exists.
Well first the joke: How innocent are the children in Palestine that detonate bombs in Israel?
Second, read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, god said that he would not destroy the people if he could find righteous men in this city. The few righteous people in this city are the ones that are ESCORTED out by the angels of the lord (think of the man LOT). We cannot be sure why god was against these people, but we can suspect they were sinful in some way. Is it murder to execute serial killers? Remember, by god’s rules these men are guilty of sin… just like by man’s rules, serial killers are guilty of homicide.
If god blinks an eye and these men dissapear will the Israelites learn to fear sinful behavior? In the exodus god performed a few miracles (fire from heaven that blocked the path of the Egyptians, parting of the Red Sea, manna from heaven) and still some people doubted… god has used man as an example to man throughout the bible. Now, argue this biblically as per your request.
I’m no mormon so I get the joke.
Here is the problem… biblically, what you said makes no fucking sense. Nearly every section of the entire bible has something that is used to show mankind examples of right and wrong. In the REAL world, people would cross red traffic lights if they weren’t shown that there are consequences (I sure would). You give someone a ticket and suddenly they are less apt to speed or run stop signs.
Look, you may look at the book as largely fiction (I do) but it clearly has many philisophical matters that address human nature. Human beings tend to test and BEND the rules. As a child, were you ever warned not to take from the cookie jar? I was, and still I grabbed them! When I was punished I learned to be sneakier–and when caught I was punished. Eventually the point came through…
God’s emotion can be argued to be a sign of compassion and even perhaps a bit of his feminime side.
I am here to strengthen your knowledge of the bible… you can reach a lot more people if you learn to argue biblically. If your goal is to show others that god is a fraud you have only succeeded in reaching those that think just like you. If you want to reach others you will need to learn a better approach. A lot of your posting is full of sarcasm which often stems from resentment or hate (minimally it can be confused with hate). You are witty yet unrefined. I honestly suggest reading more posts found here at ILP which will help you view a spectrum of different opinions. I would wager that a bright guy like you would quickly see which type of argument is more effective.
Polemarchus gave me it when I was argueing along the same lines in ‘Smart-nerd invents god’ it has some (admittedly technical) treatizes on free-will vs. God issues, as well as evil exists - so God doesn’t etc…
Yeah, I liked it too, although I would have picked a better actor to play Satan…like maybe that weirdo from “The Golden Child.” (Wishes Gavin wasn’t some advocate demon but Satan himself.)
Actually, the plot was that John Constantine tried to commit suicide at an early age - having seeing all these horrific things - and that barred him out of Heaven, so to try to “buy” his way through the gates, he starts fighting the agents of Hell. It turned out in order to get to Heaven, he had to commit an act of selflessness…fighting demons just didn’t cut it…
He was immortal? He did kill himself at the end - or try to rather…
I know what his problem was…Constantine was Reeves…go figure.
Sorry - but I thought it was crap. I used to read Hellbound - and Sandman (the comics it was based on back in the early 90’s) - and just sat back in disappointment through most of the film.
I wish Hollywood would cast more unknowns in their blockbuster attempts. Reeves is Neo, and always will be - Bogus.
I think my arguments show that god was not a jerk here.
