if the ancients had trouble believing how can we not?

we know from the bible that whenever god performed miracles or killed off those with a shadow of doubt, to get the people of the times to believe in him… and yet as we can see even with god kicking ass and taking names the people in the stories STILL had trouble believing in god almighty.

So my question is, knowing this and knowing the lack of god in such a way in our lives for the last 2000 years (in christian time scales - much further for judaistic time scale), how can you expect people to NOT have trouble believing in a god that resorts to fairy tales about himself?

Seriously, how is what is in the bible any more valid than a book about unicorns or dragons? God isn’t down here instilling fear into doubters. He’s not dropping manna from heaven for all the starving children in the world. He’s not destroying New York City, Soddhom and Gohmorra style. So what’s the drive to believe in god when he’s off in a far corner of the universe waiting for god knows what?

and how can you (being a fervant believer) not question your faith in such a lazy god? a god that is benevolent yet allows evil to happen? a god that is powerless to help in such situations? a god that really looking at the current state of the world past and present doesn’t really care at all.

Old stuff…

Try to bring something fresh.

scythekain

I know how foolish all this must seem and to a great extent I agree with you. However, the question still remains if there is something essentially true in all sacred texts that goes beyond pure fantasy? Is there a way that all this would begin to make sense?

If we exist as alluded to in sacred texts, we are unawakened and asleep to reality. How is anyone supposed to truly believe anything under those conditions? The Bible can only truly begin to be understood when a person begins to see what it is for which isn’t for you to bow down or bargain with Mr. God whose looking for appreciation. It exists as a psychological work for the purpose of helping man to awaken. No ass kissing required.

I know Christianity has become a dirty word here so leaving that alone for a moment, consider the same problem in the context of Buddhism. Read the following story of the burning house and tell me if it resonates with you at all.

The question isn’t how to believe but how to awaken so that one can believe and all the help from above has been concerned with this. But we battle common sense with such ingenuity in the cause of self deception that it has been noted in the etheric journals that even “the arch cunning Lucifer himself has become green with envy.”

acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phal … otus1.html

god spoke & the world was created…you speak, and your world is created… just because you think god is at some corner of the universe not caring about all the starving children, etc. doesn’t mean that is the reality of the situation…didn’t god leave adam in charge of the land…well, your great ancestor is gone now…what are you going to do to help out?..maybe god thinks you don’t care and are being lazy… :astonished:

If I had the power to create worlds and men, I would have the power to help worlds and men.

If I had the infinite time to understand the very nature of the universe. i could fix the problems within ours.

but since I’m no god, i can only live out my life scrambling to get by and when I can manage drop off a few cans of food at the local food bank.

since I’m no god, I can only manage to wonder why it is that some people no matter how hard the work are at the bottom of the wheels of capitalism, never to get ahead, and barely getting by.

To pull truth from fantasy is folly.

we are awake to reality only when we awaken to what is mythos and what is real. The bible puts men to sleep. Reality (cold and hard and godless) wakes man up. The reality is much harsher than the fiction. The fiction offers a nice soffet of what will happen when you die. the fiction provides a nice dream for those who are downtrodden in this life… The reality is that, it’s nothing more than mana.

I realize that materialism leads to “blind-ness”, yet de-materialism in the essence of “true” christianity or Buddhism is also blindess. The true point of such teachings is to keep the downtrodden not worried about whether the lord of the country is so rich, because they know that they’ll “get their toys in heaven” (or treasure).

So you see, total depravation of materialism is a lie. while total materialims will make you blind to other needs. That’s my current dillema though… without god, what does it matter if one is selfish or not? Really is that what god is for some order of checks and balances in the world, or else we’d all resort to being like the presidents of large corps, always chasing after one more dollar? Not giving a sh** about the employees. Not caring about the environment.

So yes… the god of the bible is impossible.

But a world without god is disgusting.

MB - The agnostical atheistic deist.

Scyth

How can you know that true Christianity or Buddhism is blind if you haven’t experienced either? You ask “without god, what does it matter if one is selfish or not?” Is the reason that you wouldn’t steal money out of a blind person’s cup is because of God?

We agree as does any true teaching that the human ethical condition leaves much to be desired. I would agree also that a lot of religious interpretation is misguided.

I also see that you are not in your observations. You do not include yourself. How are you part of the disgusting mess?

Leaving God out of it, first things first. What is a man? What can we truly know of ourselves? Maybe we just got into a mess from no real fault of our own. How different is this knowledge than just being angry at perceptions? Maybe we have to be more human to begin with before trying to comprehend God? What exists behind the anger? If there wasn’t anything, there would be nothing to be angry about.

How am I part of the disgusting mess? well I am vice president of a NPO organization that is recycling unused computers and giving them to people who otherwise can’t afford computers.

Also when I can I give to charities that I feel are worthy. Lately this has been harder as I’ve been trying to save money to buy my family a permanent home.

I confront people who litter, I call in agressive drivers. Because I believe it takes a mole to move a mountain. if the mole just digs around like every other mole nothing will happen.

as for buddhism, the complete lack of materialism doesn’t interest me, I think life requires balance. like the scales of justice.

materialism and spirituality must be balanced. it’s the extremes of either that problems occur.

and I’ve also experienced christianity. (click on the link in my signature).

Christianity of today is a narrow minded affair of exclusivity trying to claim inclusiveness… maybe gnostics were better practicioners but we’ll never know.

for most people this would be yes.

For me it’s because I have compassion for the blind man. The blind and the crippled are the poor that I have complete compassion for. The poor that are there by choice (and yes a majority of them are) I have little compassion for.

Scythe,

Perhaps a different way of seeing would help. It is very western to hold the concept of that which is as the ultimate sentience. The creator, the big boss in the sky, the whatever-it-is that directs the thinking and acting of humanity. We have to get past that. Is it possible that all that we call God isn’t a particularness -ie- entity, but the procession of coming into being and the returning to? Is it possible that the process we identify as ‘me’, is a temporary locus in the larger procession?

Not all explanations include cause-effect as primary separate ‘things’, but as secondary parallel happenings in the manifold complexity of procession.

This is but a tiny part of eastern understanding and I offer it only in the observation that it is possible that it may be less what we see and more about how we see. See?

JT

certainly something to think about, and certainly something I’ve thought in my more “eastern” state of mind.

Lately thought, I’ve been more atheistic than agnostic … that’s what happens when you spend more time working than “philosophizing”.

I certainly on any other month would probably agree with you, and believe that reincarnation is more plausible than any other explanation of the metaphysical universe.

MB,

More than once you’ve heard me declare as an agnostic. It isn’t quite what it seems. I use that term only to be intelligible to most of those who visit here. In actuality, I’m not theist, agnostic, nor atheist. That which is, is not knowable in a process world, therefore it follows that there can be no ist except in the conventions of man constructs. I am E. - none of the above. Of course, in a western causal world, I don’t exist. :unamused:

JT

is there any more room down there in non-existant land?

mb

Hi MB,

Sure, come on in! Lot’s of room and plenty of beer and chips. :laughing:

JT

:laughing:

sweet I’ll bring the salsa and lime.

mb

Are you really going to base your beliefs on how many people do/do not subscribe to that particular belief?

Don’t look too closely into the abyss now. :slight_smile:

scythekain…i’ve been reading your posts & am sitting here trying to “pull [the] truth” from [the] fantasy" - it’s actually not a bad way to learn…i’m curious to know what you would do to help “worlds & men” had you the power…maybe make sure everyone had money & to spare?..a member of my family was a thief & a drug-addict, ending up in prison from age 18-23…if he would have had money, he would have been a thief & a drug-addict with money…when he had nothing, he began to appreciate what life could be…orphaned young men from africa, who had been adopted by americans, entered a u.s. grocery store for the first time and stood & cried -the amount of food in one place was unbelievable to them…unfortunately, or fortunately, whatever the take, suffering often brings a tremendous appreciation for the supposed simple things in life…an appreciation that glut & plenty never can…with appreciation, we can find happiness in our current situation while striving for a more excellent way…we find that balance you mentioned…sharon1963…p.s. i appreciate people who do their part to make this potential dark & dreary world a little brighter…thanks…

don’t look now. I think we have an example.

sharon,

certainly we can never know how much we appreciate something until we lose it.

i kind of got sidetracked on that last post…a point i failed to mention about my family member [thief & drug-addict ] who certainly did not need material gain…was : what he did need, was a purpose for his existence… he did need to know that his life mattered…that he was important to someone…why do some people cry out to god for help [whether they know he exists or not] while others cry out to a psychiatrist?.. i don’t know… i cried to god for help at age 15 [i guess i didn’t have money for a psychiatrist]… when i had no purpose, reason, or desire to live…and my life changed…in such a dramatic way that i would characterize it as a ‘born-again’ experience…other people wondered what ‘happened’ to me…i remember walking into school [from the smoking ‘lounge’] the following year, and a counselor [trying to get me to go to class] commented on the change that had taken place…he asked what had changed me: i just said ‘god’ … if all the bibles in the world were destroyed, i would still have personal experience - cool things started happening at that time, as well…i wondered if the ‘great flood/noah’s ark’ story was real, & it seems like the next day, i turned on the tv & a documentary with aerial photographs of mt. ararat was on…things i wanted to know somehow came around me…when the student is ready, the teacher appears…who said that?.. anyway, sorry for the book…sharon1963