If you cannot love an eternal torment god

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
1

If you cannot love an eternal torment god

For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
These online books also explain why and how this changed.
tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
tentmaker.org/articles/how_h … incent.htm
thetencommandmentsministry.u … e_eternity
tentmaker.org/books/time/Time_13.html
gtft.org/Library/miscellaneo … athers.htm
tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
tentmaker.org/books/Doctrine … bution.htm

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years

The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” And they were reading the Bible in its original language.

TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism.
Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html

THE WRITINGS OF DOZENS OF TEACHERS OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM

GOD’S TRUTH LIBRARY
gtft.org/Library/index1.html

IN THE GARDEN
gtft.org/InTheGarden/index.html

A TREASURE HOUSE OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM ARTICLES
auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html

Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, “I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it’s what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer.” That’s why I want to say right at the outset that many of the links posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.

I’m 71 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.

This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.

tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html

If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.

Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.
tentmaker.org/articles/savio … larity.htm

At the top and bottom of that same THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD page, there is the following link to fourteen other writings in the same series that deal with the many aspects this same subject.
tentmaker.org/articles/savio … /index.htm

Don’t kid yourself. If anyone suffers forever JESUS IS DOING IT TO THEM
tentmaker.org/articles/savio … larity.htm

THE GOD THAT CALVINIST AND ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENTORS PROFESS TO LOVE

The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.

The god that Arminian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”

The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.

The god that Calvinistic eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

“I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever.” John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.)

And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”

To read a description of eternal torment combination Calv-Arminianism see
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
tentmaker.org/books/Absolute … hrist.html

This next url sums up the end result of all three
tentmaker.org/articles/savio … larity.htm

Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist.
So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.

What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian), or they deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinist)!

Thank God the Bible does not teach such an insane idea! Yes, God is just but He is not justice personified. However, God is Love personified. That is why He will temper all of His administrating of justice only to be for the good of the individual being judged.

Here is what the God that universal transformationists love and worship with complete abandon will do. He will complete the process of salvation for the first fruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. Then He will complete the process of salvation for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead to guarantee that any necessary “kolasis aionian” (age-during corrective chastisement) will be 100% effective in changing wrong attitudes. All acts of sin have been forgiven for everyone. Attitudes cannot be forgiven. Attitudes must change. This is what the lake of fire which is the second death will do. It will last no longer than God sees is good for everyone involved.
tentmaker.org/articles/savio … e-Eby.html

You can Google up good articles on this subject by typing in kolasis aionian

Also see
tentmaker.org/articles/savio … /index.htm

For anyone who cannot love an endless-hell god —
BIBLICAL CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST RESOURCES

Copy and paste the following urls into the address bar
richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
christian-universalism.com/links.html
christianuniversalist.org
geocities.com/kencallen/inquire2.html
Also see
Information, and frequently asked questions in support of a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaching universal salvation,

tentmaker.org/books/BibleThr … ained.html

Good news of God’s love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html

Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation
[tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm](http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm)

[tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html](http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html)

tentmaker.org/sitemap.html
tentmaker.org/articles/savio … /index.htm

pilkingtonandsons.com/urqascriptureindex.htm

(If necessary, copy and paste them into your address bar)
and they will learn that the Bible actually teaches universal salvation instead, not even annihilation.

Or, they will go to the search engine at the top of tentmaker.org and will type in a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then they may click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.

The many entries in my guestbook that is accessed towards the bottom of my front page at
greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/
and the many entries at tentmaker.org/visitorcomments.htm
show just how much this information is helping people.
Also see tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

This was the information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, and it gives me great joy to keep learning that it is helping more and more other people too!! I’m 71 years old.

I am also going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. His name is Charles Slagle.
He responds to the question, “Which view of salvation is true?”
tentmaker.org/books/Absolute … hrist.html

POST SCRIPT: For those of you who believe the Bible teaches annihilation rather than universal salvation, consider the following,
tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

2

WHAT I WISH I HAD KNOWN DURING MY YOUTH

How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown (1966-78)
I’m 71 years old

My name is Rodger Tutt. I am 71 years old. I could have avoided a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) had I known as a youth about the following information concerning what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches.

You can access my website through Google by typing in hope4you rodger tutt, or
My website is greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/

You can also access most of the following writings through Google by typing in the title.

BOOKS THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION,
THE ENTIRE CONTENTS OF WHICH CAN BE READ ONLINE

If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into your browser address bar.

  1. ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
    tentmaker.org/books/Absolute … hrist.html
  2. HOPE BEYOND HELL - Gerry Beauchemin (recently published)
    hopebeyondhell.net/Revised_Edition.pdf
  3. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
    tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
  4. THE BIBLE HELL - J.W. Hanson
    tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html
  5. THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT – Thomas Thayer
    tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
  6. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
    tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
  7. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN “HELL” - J. Preston Eby
    tentmaker.org/articles/savio … d/hell.htm
  8. ONE HUNDRED SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL SAVE ALL MANKIND - Thomas Whittemore
    tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html
  9. TWENTY-FOUR SERMONS ON UNIVERSAL SALVATION – John Bovee Dods
    tentmaker.org/Bovee2.htm#Top
  10. THE SECOND DEATH AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
    tentmaker.org/restitutionindex.htm
  11. ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY REASONS FOR BELIEVING IN THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND – Erasmus Manford
    tentmaker.org/books/150reasons.html
  12. THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS – J. Patching
    tentmaker.org/books/RichMana … ching.html
  13. BIBLE TRANSLATIONS THAT DO NOT TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT – Gary Amirault
    tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html
  14. AION – AIONIOS – John Wesley Hanson
    tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
  15. BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
    tentmaker.org/books/BibleThr … ained.html
  16. THE CASE OF JUDAS, ETCETERA
    tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter16.html
  17. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – John Essex
    AND THE ROLE OF THE ADVERSARY – James Webb
    tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html
  18. HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
    concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchie … index.html
  19. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
    auburn.edu/~allenkc/jukes2.html
  20. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – George Hawtin
    godfire.net/restitutionHawtin.html
  21. THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES – J. Preston Eby
    tentmaker.org/articles/savio … /index.htm
    ESPECIALLY THIS ONE IN THAT SERIES
    tentmaker.org/articles/savio … larity.htm
  22. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
    thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
  23. TEN REASONS NOT TO BELIEVE THE TEACHING OF ETERNAL TORTURE
    completerestorationinchrist. … s-not.html
  24. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD’S PLAN FAIL? -
    tentmaker.org/books/is_hell_ … index.html
  25. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. Knoch
    concordant.org/expohtml/TheP … index.html
  26. GOD’S EONIAN PURPOSE
    gtft.org/Library/loudy/GodsE … pose00.htm
  27. A TREASURE HOUSE OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM ARTICLES
    auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
3

Hi rodgertutt and welcome,

Will you be a regular participant to this site or will it be a one couple of postings which you have made with a series of links? I ask this because if your intent was to make a one time visit leaving your links here, they may very well be deleted.

ILP appreciates and welcomes new posters here, but it’s considered a little unsophisticated to do hit and runs with links. I’m not posting this to discourage your participation, rather we at ILP hope you will stay for discussions at this site. Thanks! :smiley:

4

I am certainly willing to discuss any aspect of anything that I have posted.

From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada

5

Is the Universalist Church the one true religion of and for God? Do no other Christian religious sects which use The Old and New Teataments have any viable assets?

6

Universalism is a belief, not a church.
It is the belief that because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, sooner or later everyone will be saved from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.

I think you would find that nearly all Christian sects have a few universalists among their members except for the very exclusive ones.

To say that Christian universalism is “the one true religion for God” would be a contradiction in terms, since the belief includes everyone.

You will find a wide range of opinions among universalists on other doctrinal issues, but they all share the common belief that eventually everyone will be saved from everything from which they need to be saved.

A good link explaining what most of us believe is
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

7

I have viewed a few of the links you have placed here and am experiencing a bit of ambiguity and contridiction from one section to the next. This may be due my lack of comprehension to some of those declarations I had read.

Did I read it right that only through Jesus’ Death along with His Spiritual Ascension to The Father in Heaven did it make it possible for all of mankind (before and after Christ’s appearance) including satan and the fallen angels to obtain Salvation without asking for redemption first?

Does the conventional Universalist believe ‘free will’ is a non sequitur because God’s Will prevails over all? Are our supposed decisions still influenced by devine indirectness?

Would a person whose faith falls into the universalist’s belief system think abortion of a child just before birth to be acceptable?

Would you say Church’s who are non-denominational that teach the Gospels in the New Testament as the mainstay of God’s Word fall into the universalists dogma?

Which sects would you consider that fall into the universalist’s point of view?

Would this be considered to fall into the vein of of ‘moral relativism’?

Saved as in being placed in the dominion of The Heavenly Father when this world has passed? Even to the point of dying, not having been saved before hand where their spirit may be dwelling withou God’s Love?

8

Yes, we believe that it is only because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection that everyone will eventually be saved.
We believe that eventually everyone will reach out for redemption (including Satan and fallen angels),
godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html
but some will need to experience “koloasis aionion,” which means age-during corrective chastisement.
Regarding kolasis aionion in Matthew 25:46, Greek scholar William Barclay wrote
“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”

That is correct. We don’t believe in “free will.” Here’s why
home.att.net/~spiritword/Adams/spirit_5.htm
We believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

We believe our actual decisions are dictated by the strongest influence that is being brought to bear upon us at any given point in time.
concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchie … nt016.html

There are a wide range of beliefs amoung universalists. The one thing they do have in common is belief in the eventual salvation of everyone from anything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn wills.

I think most universalist perceive Paul’s epistles as the mainstay of God’s Word. God is already reconciled to us. We need to encourage others to be reconciled to Him. 2Cor. 5:18-20

I think there probably are a few universalists in almost all Christian sects.

I’m not sure I understand the question.
God sees what everyone needs to be saved from and will sooner or later successfully accomplish it for everyone

We believe that everyone will eventually be in a place where there is no more pain or crying, or sorrow, or death.
Even “kolasis aionion” (age-during corrective chastisement) is a temporary negative manfestation of God’s love in action.
tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

As D. Buchanan put it

"God loves just because He is Love, yet Love’s hope in loving is to create and call forth love; hence Love’s victory is love reciprocated, love returned. So it is that Love, mingling mercy with righteousness, moves ever on, longsuffering and kind, but failing never, until at length the creature heart responds in fullness, to love unbounded and divine.

And when, at length, humanity, redeemed, ransomed, transformed by the divine from which it sprang, has thus taken on the likeness of Love’s perfect Man, the Man of Galilee and Golgotha, then Love, the Alpha, will likewise have become the Omega of all things, the atmosphere in which we live and move and have our being, and the universe will be flooded with divine affection.”

9

So basically… Your Sect of Christianity believes that Those who reach out will be saved and those who dont will be Tortured and Burned / Chastized until they see things God’s way and accept him and Salvation…

How is that Tyranical concept any different beyond the ability to eventually be relieved of it?

I mean what type of loving benevilent God would Burn his creations and give them pain simply because they refuse to believe in him / worship him? Even if he will grant them salvation out of his Mercy" after he tortures them and they beg for it enough to please him?

That’s still Tyranical in nature and Power mongering Psychotic control issues. “I’ll torture you until you submit then grant you mercy after you agree with me” type stuff.

So a God that Torments only Part time is Ok… But one that does it eternally isn’t?

Personally Id rather worship a God that didn’t tormwent at all and said hey Lifes a bitch you’ve suffered enough… welcome to heaven!!!

But what would be the point of a religion like that? There’s no Dogma in it. No fear, No pain, No You need to do this because you’ll burn if you don’t etc. It would fail miserably because man defines his reality through Pain and suffering as a species. And thus Does so through his belief as well.

10

I suppose if you want to perceive the determination of God’s love to succesfully save everyone as being “tyranical,” we would have no problem with that. That sort of tyranny is certainly acceptable to me.

We URs are confident that “kolasis aionian” (age-during corrective chastisement) will only involve pain if God sees that is the best way to negatively manifest His love in a correcting manner. Kolasis aionion doesn’t save. Only Jesus saves.
But kolasis aionon will change wrong attitudes and cause sinners to reach out for the salvation that Christ has provided, that sooner or later everyone will enjoy.

It could even be that kolasis aionion doesn’t even involve pain at all. Psalm 94:10,12 says “He (God) that chastiseth the heathen, shall not He correct? Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O Lord.”

For me the answer to that is quite simple yet profound.
Looking back from the point of view of the consummation of God’s plan for the ages of time
CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
everyone will agree that it was better for everyone that everything happened the way that it did, better than if it had not happened that way.

As we URs see it, when evil and suffering has taught all the lessons that God wants them to teach, God will then erradicate both from existence.

THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html

11

First off you can’t negitively enforce love as love in general definiton is not negative.

If your God is using pain and suffering to teach, then he does not love you, nor is he benevolent if it is him commiting a conscious act to cause such. you are your own person what gives god the right to say what you do or do not need to learn? And what further gives him the right to say because you dont believe this way you will be chastized until you do.

The definition of a tyrant is someone or something who “Forces” their will and way upon others through pain and suffering.

Everything you have stated is exactly that word for word in your description of God.

If I say I love you but I need to cut off your penis and your left arm in order to teach you a lesson you would be like WTF your crazy!!!

God does the same thing, just on a larger scale.

There is no difference in the above compared with the exception that I do not consider myself a god.

12

We, URs (universal reconciliationists) of course, disagree with the above.

We are ever so glad for the “tyranny” of God’s love that never gives up on anyone but will stick with everyone until He has ellicited a loving response from everyone. In the same way that a parent disciplines a child with (hopefully) just the right amount of penalty, so too will God let people who need it, experience just the right amount of kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) that will change wrong attitudes.

Unlike the Christian fundamentalists who assert that God will let people choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering, we URs see in the Bible a God Who has an eonian plan, at the end of which He will get rid of all evil and suffering everywhere in His creation.

The following link is excellent on what we believe about it and why we believe it.

THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. Knoch
concordant.org/expohtml/TheP … index.html

13

If you new what the word love actually meant and it’s truer deeper meaning. You would see the error in your thinking and comprehension. I can do many things to a person and call it love, things which would be considered Psychotic, Deranged, etc. However they are only considered such if I do not claim to be God. Once a make that claim, in your theory whatever I do is justified simply by saying “I do it because I love you”.

It’s like the daddy who melests his child or the husband that beats his wife and children to teach them to obey and when ask’s why, he says “Because I love you”.

God doesn’t forgive everyone eventually because he loves them, He does it so that resources are not wasted. A willing slave is much more useful then one you continuously have to chastise in order to get it to do what you desire. If you knew anything about metaphysics you would know why this is and why the entity called God does it the way he does. The bible is strictured metaphysicaly in massive occult rituals including prayer, all designed for one singular purpose: To willfully give your energy to this being. It is a power syphon so to speak. Believing the way you do doesn’t make you stronger it makes you weaker. And revelations even tells you that when you get to heaven you will be a Mindless slave praising day and night forever non stop.

You will not be free.
You will not be happy nor sad.
You will not even be you.
You will not be able to do anything on your own volition.
You will not have free will.

But in this you also wont even know that the above is true, because you will be programed and set as God sees fit for you as a servant. A mindless slave. Set as a battery for spiritual energy. Much like you would put a AA battery in a flashlight without a thought about the battery. Again, if you knew anything about the metaphysical you would understand all of this and why it is that way.

But I digress, if it makes you happy so be it.

14

Here’s “the bottom line” for me.
From the point of view of the consummation of God’s plan for the ages of time,
saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
everyone will look back and understand that it was better for everyone that everything happened the way that it did.
godfire.net/eby/restitution.html
ESPECIALLY THE VERY LAST PARAGRAPH IN THAT LINK

15

Posting links as evidence to your reasons for belief is using anothers words and theories to surplant your own.

So you do not think for yourself?
Can you not explain what you believe in your own words?
Can you not refute what I have said with your own intelligent mind?

Or are you so stretched and hollow already that nothing of your self remains to speak for itself?

16

SPEAKING FOR MYSELF, WRITTEN IN MY OWN WORDS (except for the quote from Dr. Leslie Weatherhead)

I am a “Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist.”

I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.

I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone’s suffering into something better that it happened.

That includes both the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls “kolasis aionion” which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, and He will not fail to do so.

I believe that God’s determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God’s PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do.

I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross. That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.

Realizing that he is including everyone without exception, the following quote by universalist Dr. Leslie Weatherhead nicely sums up what I believe. I’ve had it memorized for many years and love to quote it frequently.

“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”

17
  • Do you not believe that the mental block keeping your from thinking in higher thought patterns is an issue?

Not to be able to think … for me… Is like saying your required to cut out your physical eyes which you need to see with. I see with my Mind, to limit it is to blind me. I would not do such just as you would not cut out your own eyes.

  • Why do you believe God is better then you?

I would prefer not to here what people have told you or what your religion states as the reason, but what your personal soul deep reason is for considering Him better then you.

Did you ever perhaps think that this trial of chastisement may actually be your life in this realm?

  • Do you believe man is a puppet?

From the what your saying it would seem you think Humans have no choice in their future and that God’s master plan is all encomposing.

  • If that is the case, Then what is the purpose of even existing or living, If your nothing more then a place holder in some supper entities Script? Seems a bit empty honestly…

I will agree to disagree with you on this point. But I wont elaborate on why… Yet. God after all is imperfect as a being, and is just as capable of making mistakes and failing as mortal man. After all Man was made to represent and after the image of God. And man is severely flawed and imperfect. Only an imperfect creator creates an imperfect creation. In art it’s not perfection that makes beauty but the flaws in them which create it’s life. Either way failure is a possibility just as success is. And no that wasn’t the elaboration, that’s merely a side note.

You realize the easiest way to do this is simply to destroy his creation and start anew right? Technically and metaphorically speaking this would end all pain and suffering, and since it would be God doing it perfectly in line with his master plan and will. It would also be “Saving you”. Most do not think around the bend enough to see that side of things.

If your thoughts are correct then how do you know I am not doing God’s will by posting here? If indeed it is all part of Gods master plan… Maybe God want’s you to think differently… And if that is the case who are you to debate God’s will if you are his loyal servant? I ma not saying that I am, I’m just pointing out a logical error in thinking on your part.

Blood is physical. It holds only power in the physical. And is simply a representation of something else, blood is simply the physical component of a much larger … working… If you will. Both for this realm and the metaphysical one. I am not going to go into what that working was as it is not relivant to this conversation. But I did write a rather large an indepth artical on it in vast detail on another post a while back.

Christ, actually did not accomplish what you think he did. In fact he failed quit miserably. His goal was to remove all sin from the world and from man. Look at the world. Does it look like he succeeded? And instead of doing good as you would call it, it caused massive trauma to your species and closed the gates to the metaphysical for this realm. Why do you think summonings no longer work correctly? or that things so obvious as the soul are not visible anymore?

The world is a gray desert compared to it’s plush and warmth before that incident. Metaphysically speaking.

And yet for all of that it is simply a guess and an opinion… wouldn’t you agree there is no actual proof to support such claims? Sure there are writeing where others make the same claims… but those are still just claims of another Man or woman. Not of the Divine.

Wouldn’t you say?

18

My only motivation for posting here was to guide people to evidence that the Bible (literally, not interpretively) translated, does not teach that God will let anyone suffer forever, but instead, will eventually save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved.

All other issues are infinitely secondary to me.

I guess I should have made it clear that when I said that I am willing to discuss any aspect of what I have posted, I meant only as it relates to whether or not the Bible teaches universal salvation.

[Stumps: In light of this clarification; this topic has been moved to Theological Discussions where the axiom of dogmatic theology is held for the purposes of examining extending subject matter based on the given; in this case the Bible as a truth is the axiom and the debate is between literal or interpretive reading.]

19

Ah so presented with logic, Faith takes a back seat stance, and decides to go with literal interpretation of the bible rather then the debate that was infinitely more important on all levels.

As I stated before, any idiot can argue about what is written on paper. Wheres the fun in that? I show you this sheet of papper that says this and you show me one that says that from an earlier date. Hmm ok yours is better because it’s written first. Case solved.

I’m not even seeing the point of such a post as there is clearly nothing to debate as in those terms Historical translative evidence shows the translation you posted.

No instead, this post was not about that, this post was you sharing your beleife and debating it. Oh yes Stumps this goes in religion and should be debated to which he should be forced to defend. Read the thread you’ll find it has nothing to do with actual translations beyond a few sentences in the OP. And instead has everything to do with the mans Faith and beleif and what that is specifically.

Just my opinion to the OP, but you should not post if you feel you are inadaquately equipped to defend yourself. Or unwilling to accept conclusions your mind comes to when faced with such debates. Admitting you are not sure about something is no crime or shame and is much more respected then “hideing” behind the stack of paper definitions when things start to get ugly for you.

20

CORRECTLY TRANSLATED BIBLES

One of the important tools for believing that the Bible teaches universal reconciliation is to use a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible.
Here are several. The ones on line you don’t even have to pay for.

CORRECT TRANSLATIONS ONLINE

CONCORDANT concordant.org/about/index.html
concordant.org/version/index.html
YOUNG’S LITERAL auburn.edu/~allenkc/rylt/rylt.html

OTHER CORRECT TRANSLATIONS NOT ONLINE LISTED AT THE FOLLOWING THREE LINKS
members.cox.net/tmurr10/aswundivided.html#10
tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_ … rever.html
tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html