i have some questions , please enlighten me, and if anyone said this before on the forum and you think i stole it, i probably did unconciously, and i’m sorry… So to all the theists…
How is eternal hell justifiable? Personally, i don’t think anyone deserves eternal hell, not hitler, not any of the serial murdering pedophilists (maybe a couple of thousand), not me, not anyone… for that matter how is it that millions of nice people are going to hell just on the fact they don’t believe, why millions of assholes are going to heaven, the morality is all messed up… good gets hell, bad gets evil? isn’t god good? why are they going to hell then…
You might say, we chose it? But i think ben or polemarchus said somewhere how could we make a choice if we aren’t aware or we were made that way (i don’t think there was a coutner to this either, when polemarchus said why would we be punished if that’s how god made us?)? If you ask a person with a low iq, you want a lobotomy or a vesectomy, lobotomy might sound like lobster so theyll pick that just on the basis of ignorance? (sorry if this is not a good analogy) they are ignorant and stupid they don’t know whats going on. So if we’re ignorant and stupid not knowing there is god that somehow all of you know why is that my fault.
but then you might say it’s all about faith, but isn’t faith innate, like love? I just don’t have it, why is that my fault, why do i derseve hell for that? you can’t force someone to love. you might say i’m not trying hard enough, i didn’t consult my local church or pastor, but why would i try if i don’t believe? that is a paradox.
why did god make us? was he bored? how could god be bored?
statistically aren’t at lesat 10 times more people going to hell than heaven?
How is it jusitfiable suicides go to hell? They are depressed, some have a disease or chemical imbalance. And even if they didn’t, its obvious they’ve had really, really bad lives. And now they get thrown into hell too… great…
people before jesus go to purgatory or something? so where these people are going is just based on when they were born?
how come god did all this stuff before like in the old testament and now he just sits on his ass?
i forgot, what did descartes say was a godlike attribute in us? our ability to reason or abiltiy to think of perfect things? or did he say that…
i have a feeling i’m hardly going to get any satisfactory answers…
are there more atheists here or something? it seems the theists have stopped countering atheists arguments on most of these posts …
amazingly apparantly as it is in earth success is all about who you know!
the christians ask if you know jesus every day.
Well have you seen that new impromptu game show where they walk up to people and ask them questions. Well this is sorta like that. God hides behind a fake wall and has somebody offer you a trick question. and he jumps out and tells you what you get. thats life birth is when you walk in the door and death is when youve answered the entire survey and then judgement is when god jumps out and tells you whats going on.
as magius says how depressing. Tell me you have faith in somebody or something. Well your on the right step to your goal by asking questions. Thats all i can tell you with out leaving a biased view.
Post this questin on the philosophy board you will get better answers more open ended questions too though.
Depends on which hell your talking about. but yes if your a christian every body who is not christian is going to hell. I bet those who dont read the bible probably belive jewish people are going to hell too silly non readers. its a damned if you do damned if you dont thing. The best thing to do is make only moral decisions. Its hard but you can sleep at night.
i asked this at a younger age and was told because those that take their lives from their own devices defy god supposedly going against his wishes.
well dont know how to answer you. Look at how the Jewish text(the jewish people dont call it the old testemant) ends they are left still waiting for their next prophet. Christianty gains rise and make the jewish text the old testemant and write their new covenant. they say they fulfill all the promises that were left open in the old testemant but that sounds too self fulfilling to me. but as for gods activity, well look how long the bible was spaned out. it didnt really happen every day. it was a long drawn out thing.
And if these answers arnt satisfactory keep pushing me ill come up with somthing.
I found the above to be so funny, I had to write this:
BUSY STREET-
A fellow in a blue suit stops a man on his way to the grocery store
BLUE SUIT: Excuse me, sir, could you tell me the capital of Zaire?
OTHER MAN: Uh jeez, I don’t know, man.
BLUE SUIT: You have to guess something.
OTHER MAN: Um, Uganda?
BLUE SUIT: Ohhh, sorry, I’m afraid Uganda is itself a country. Bit of a trick question actually, as Zaire is now called Congo, the capital being Kinshasa. Well I have a surprise guest for you, you see that man over there? The one in the robes? It’s God! Say hi to our contestant, God.
GOD: Hello, Bill. Yes, I know your name.
BILL (OTHER MAN): Uh, hey God.
GOD: Chuck, why don’t you tell our contestant what he’s won.
CHUCK (BLUE SUIT): Well Bill, you’ve won an all-expenses-paid, one-way trip straight to Hell! Yes, eternal damnation and fiery torment await you, and you’ll be experienceing terrible pain and suffering in the absence of God until time is no longer time. Well, thanks for playing!
BILL: That doesn’t seem very fair…
GOD: You forget that I am perfect, and therefore everything I do is also fair and perfect.
BILL: Then why did you have to flood the earth to destr-
CHUCK: I said thanks for playing.
BILL: But-
CHUCK, TO CAMERA: Join us next week as we condemn, er, judge a whole new group of contenstants, here on “YOU’RE GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL!”
See thats part of why god does not show his presence.
Cause tv people would want him to star/judge in their tv shows.
Damn that was funny.
But still a good example. Except Chuck wouldnt know he was doing it, he would just think its the right thing to do for the moment, and God would never really jump out it would all be done behind the scenes. and when chuck has helped you decide for yourself even though you were helped (its the kind of help that supports the right and wrong answer, he never tells you the answer only motivates you to find your own answer) and then bill would die, and god would then give his judgement from the decision earlier in bill’s life.
But the thing that screws up the game is bill should be allowed to attone. But i dont know how to attone for not knowing the capital of zaire.
You should check out my thread on Hard Determinism. You may already understand it, but HD basicly says that becuase our universe is based on laws (the ones found physics, and chemistry) and becuase we are ourselves physical beings, then we are also goverend by these same laws, to every degree. One of the implications of HD, is that man cannot have free will. The choices we make, the decisions for good or bad, are not chosen by us, but by the sum of all the factors in our lives. Thus if our decisions are governed by our surroundings absolutly, then it would be unfair to judge us by the decisions made in our lives.
This is why Bill has every right to object at the end. Notice the hypocrisy of a God that creates a life, and puts it into a situation in which he knows, for certain, that the only possible outcome is one in which that life is shaped into a form that goes against the morals and virtues considered, “good”. Then that same God confronting the life about the “choices” it made, and punishing it, possibly for all eternity, when that life had no real choice in the things it did.
I tend to think of life as a play. With our souls as the actors, our lives being only characters written by God, and us living out a grand storyline towards some greater meaning. The point being, that in any movie, if there is a villian, no matter how evil the villian is in the movie, the actor portraying that villian is not held responsible for the actions of his character. Hannibal the Cannibal of “Silence of the Lambs” was a chillingly evil villian. But Anthony Hopkins isn’t held responsible for that evil, he’s just an actor, it’s all pretend. He is governed by the script, just as we are governed by the grand design of our universe.
Judgement, then, is not neccesarily imposible, but it would go against the concept of a God that is fair. And when presented with the proof that Judgement and a fair God cannot fit in the same room, I tend to believe that a fair God exists, and that judgement does not.
All eternity is a long time but consider this, there are these asthetics in India who pierce themselves with all sorts of stuff as a way of spiritual liberation. You see I think the reasoning behind this is that if the problem of life is pain then the best thing to do is to head straight through it. If you do and you go through all the pain you can and you endure you no longer have a problem. So as a way to be liberated from pain head straight for it and you will be free of it. In the same way if you go to hell and you are afraid of punishment head straight for it you won’t die you are already dead to be in hell for eternity just means that after a long while it will no longer have an effect on you and you will be free of hell. Even in heaven there is still a hell, only in hell is there no more hell.
i saw at the very first entry that you said that not even Hitler deserves to go to eternal hell and i agree but what is the use of sending him to supposed heaven? i know that he thought that he was doing the right thing so technically there is nothing wrong with that but if heaven and hell does exist what is the use of sending him straight to heaven?
A samurai walks up to a monk and asks him please tell me the difference between heaven and hell. The monk turns around and replies “your’e nothing but a lousy lout why should I waste my time with the likes of you”. The samurai draws his sword and says “what how dear you insult me I could strike you down with one blow”. The monk says to him “now that is hell”. The samurai realizes the wisdom, thanks the monk and sheaths his sword. The monk says “now that is heaven”.
LOL…that was too good. Shit I cannot stop laughing…lol… I can’t help it, I gotta follow up on this…
INSIDE A 7-11 SOMEWHERE:
(Our good man Chuck goes up to the cashier)
CHUCK: If I wanted to buy a Sobe, could you tell me how much I would have to pay - without looking please?
CASHIER(BOB): Uhh…sure sir. It would be $1.69.
CHUCK: Is that your final answer?
CASHIER(BOB): Pretty sure…
CHUCK: Well sir, you see that old man in the white robe behind you?
CASHIER(BOB): JESUS CHRIST!! WHERE DID YOU COME FROM!??
GOD: I have my ways… Now Bob, you forgot to add tax to your final answer, which would have made the final cost about $1.75.
BOB: But I thought he wanted to know how much it was on the tag in the fridge!
GOD: You forgot hidden costs, you must now be rewarded. Chuck?
CHUCK: Congrats Bob, you’re going straight to the 8th Level of Hell where demons of all sorts take great pleasure shoving three very painful 20-inch demon-penises in your ass FOR THE REST OF ETERNITY… Oh yeah, I forgot, you’ll also be required to take them in the mouth too.
BOB: But wait don’t I get a sec- ahhhhh!! (Bob suddenly falls down a hole of fire, to his ultimate destination.)
GOD(stroking his beard): This is fun, who’s next Chuck?
CHUCK: Let’s see m’lord…(checks PalmPilot)…Ahh yes, President Bush…
Your post has some good points so I am not sure where to go.But I will try to keep my response as refined and confined to provide some structure that can be followed and improved upon.
I don’t know how eternal hell is justifiable. Also this post from Kat_Pinter doesn’t really clarify anything
The point in this as far as I can tell is there is no option better than to send Hitler to hell rather than Heaven. This isn’t a reason to send him to hell. First of all you would think God would have some better place than hell if this was the case, him/her being all knowing.So I don’t know why this is a point though personally wouldn’t like to have Hitler in Heaven. I believe this is what you left underneath your statements, but my opinion of whether seeing Hitler floating around on the cloud and wanting to stick my foot up his ass has nothing to do with God’s judgement of hell and heaven.
Also the common reasons for eternal damnation is conflicting if you take into the account that conditions of the mind are innate and affected by the envirnoment. If this is the case, and if i am determined by my envirnoment and by internal factors then how do I get judged to be damn or exalted? Yeah this is a good point you raised. Truthfully, this is a heavy contested argument, some will insert free will and etc. But since I said i would try to keep this as refined and confined as possible… I will then assume that there is no free will, as your post suggest. If this is the case, then the only thing I can do is challenge the common reasons for eternal damnation.
An alternative to this was pointed out by w_enslin
w_enslin doesn’t point out the main idea since it seems self-evident, but this doesn’t help if other don’t see it or share the same beliefs. Now his point is that hell is self-created through negative feelings. This complicates things since it is an eastern belief(Zen Buddhism).This seems more appealing than the "God sent me to hell and I don’t know why " or “I am ignorant of hell but i got sent there anyway” reasoning for damnation. The reasons it is more appealing is because it gives a degree of control for the individual to determine his/her own damnation rather than to follow some standard from some omnibeing. Uh, though to accept this means you must accept free will, not fate. So if you think about it, having extreme belief into life being determined by fate or free will causes a good deal of problems. I would suggest for there to be a reasonable explaination of damnation one would find a reasonable balance of fate and free will rather to contest whether which dominates.
Posted by harry_haller
Uh you are thinking about Hades. It was the reasoning to combine Greek Hades, a place where souls spend eternality in a haze, with the savior. It is in no way exclusively associated with the Greeks however. It was to explain what happened to people before Jesus when they supposely could go to heaven since uh sins were not erased. The thing you failed to mention is that despite their place in hades, supposely when Jesus died for their sin, he went about and released them from hades and placed them to heaven. But your point is it isn’t fair to be sent somewhere depending on some neutral factor such as time, but this implies that you believe in morality or some other “fair” mechanism. So define your belief of morality and immoralilty or whatever is the “fair” mechanism that you have withdrawn from us. If there is a possibility you only know that there is a “fair” mechanism and am unsure of what it is exactly then discussing the ideas related to it will assist in clarifying it. I am a fan of the dialectic method.
Also posted by Harry_haller
You say a possible rebuttal is faith? This is too complicated to go into if you do not tell me what faith is. At the moment what you handed me is a abstract definition of faith and the only means for me to give a concise response is for you to define it technically. This isn’t finding specifics starting from vague observation and inferences, e.g. Piaget’s definition of intelligence, since for this the more abstract the question the more abstract and complicated the answer and the rebuttal. So lets make this simple. Simplicity is much more beautiful than needless complexity. I will wait for your definition of faith, and need be I will refine it along side you. Others of course can join in, but be reasonable, don’t spur crap and not explain anything, no matter how ingenious your point is.
Harry_Haller post
lmao this made me laugh because of the way it was phrased. This however doesn’t deny or confirm a position on God. Unless of course this is one of the reason that you hold that God exist, that being the divine intervention that happened and recored in the bible is evidence of God. This poses more problems since then you have to assume the material is true, first of all, to raise this point. Meaning you go with the wave to try to turn the wave aside. What i mean is it leads to only probability, e.g. If this is true then he must do divine acts even to this day. This causes more questions since now you have to define what is a divine act and what constitutes a non-divine act. Just so no one barges in and throws this stereotypical blanket statement “Everything is divine, just look at life around you” hrm…pin… nicl…e…hrm. All i can say is I don’t know if you don’t make it clear what your position is on this.
Posted by Harry_haller
Uh, this is refering to the common belief that lack of acceptance in Christ deems damnation. This is funny since there are always others who believe something to this degree in different religions. They are usually the extremes. I don’t like this question. This sentence is much more complicated than it may seem. It implies that it is an unfair amount of people are going to hell and a possible purpose behind asking this question is to point out this isn’t fair. Leading to shouldn’t God be fair? This is only if you accept the proposition that not believing in Christ causes damnation, and whatever similarities there are in other religions. That is a ccmmon belief though and it can be contested. I would personally challenge this belief that accepting or not accepting is a cause of damnation actually exist(note proof) rather than to accept it than ask whether it is fair or not to have a high ratio of hell to heaven recipients. The reason for this is even if you prove that it is unfair, and if this is true then it just leads to accepting that God is unfair or SEEMS unfair; leading to acceptance of it all or nothing. Personally that doesn’t help at all. It is better to think in a moderate fashion.
I would like to note that your barrage of questions all have in it little hints of your position on this matter, that being that your position of atheism is all standing. Semantically… that is how you are presented.
Heaven and Heaven are not places, they are directions on a line. This line is one of distance or closeness to God. Those in “Heaven” have accepted God and are, thus, close to him. Those in “Hell” are far away. Each “place” involves a choice. Hell is not a place of punishment, simply a distance from the eternal source of good in the universe, God. (I have drawn liberally from the neo-platonic thoughts of Augustine here)
Maybe there is something in the fundamental essence of God which is Creative. Really i have no clue. I’ve tended to deal with more of the what now? than the why?
uh…what?
see above. Also according to the Catholic Church (now) suicides do not go to hell. They are absolved because of the idea that to kill yourself you must be mentally unbalanced and thus, not accountable for the act. This is not to say the Church believes in “justified” suicides, but rather blameless suicides (i.e. not a good suicide, but a suicide without blame)
My personal belief is that Jesus’ teachings can (and have) helped alot of people get closer to God, but people can do it without him. The issue has created various controversies within religious institutions, but I think in the end we have to admit that we really don’t know what exactly happens to people after they die and that trying to proclaim that so and so will obviously go to hell or heaven is arrogant and, in a sense, an attempt to usurpt God’s final authority on the matter.
According to Christian belief, God came down himself as Jesus and served as a last prophet giving the final account of his Word. According to Muslims, Muhammed was that last prophet. And I believe Jews are still waiting for the messiah. This was the one final perfect revelation of his will and word. As for not acting…many believe that God still acts in the world through miracles and the answering of prayers.
Shit I cannot stop laughing…lol… I can’t help it, I gotta follow up on this…