Illegal Immigration

[Duder]

@tfdmissmatch

I think the question is whether or not we really want to continue the steady stream of illegal immigration from a country whose citizens dont have the ability to reform their own country. Let immigrants come into the country legally and prove that they just wont leech off the many government based institutions such as school and healtcare.

I think the real question is can America surive without the illegal worker element which has worked self into the American economic infrastructure?

$5 a tomatto?

[Muscular_philosopher]

@Duder

@tfdmissmatch

I think the question is whether or not we really want to continue the steady stream of illegal immigration from a country whose citizens dont have the ability to reform their own country. Let immigrants come into the country legally and prove that they just wont leech off the many government based institutions such as school and healtcare.

I think the real question is can America surive without the illegal worker element which has worked self into the American economic infrastructure?

$5 a tomatto?

The economy would adjust in no time at all. The illegals are not needed at all.

[Satori]

But which way would the economy adjust. It is similiar to a tomato shortage a couple years back, and us (the workers) were not allowed to order items from the restaurant due to their pricing. Simple economic reasoning shows that if illegals are no longer hired than a.) Workers would have to be replaced b.) these workers would demand more wages c.) the price of the items would increase. Can people afford this? or will certain elements of the industries affected grow beyond our control?

[tfdmissmatch]

yes, satori, prices of grocery goods would increase, but then the necessity for the government to take so much percent money out of our paychecks would be diminished. A tax cut could alleviate the increase in grocery goods.

[Muscular_philosopher]

The economy would adjust whenever Americans adjusted to a society without illegal immigrants. Sooner than you think. Certain goods would have a higher cost but that would be alleviated by lower health costs, insurance costs & tax cuts. Not to mention our spoiled youth would actually have the opportunity to get their hands dirty and become a grateful generation. That’s worth more than any dollar amount, if you ask me.
We would lose 15+ million people who are draining us dry. I live in Minnesota where we have 5 million people. That means I could go outside and for every person I see I could add 2 and that’s how many illegals we have. Insane.

But the Dem’s want to votes, the Repub’s want the cheap labor and NAFTA says we can’t seal our border. Sold out by you-know-who.

[aspacia]

@MagnetMan

This is a heavily loaded issue, which is not going to go away.
It is global in extent.
Much of Europe is also struggling with it.
As the numbers grow, the political fall-out in the future looms large.

The West’s struggle with illegal immigrants has more than one side,

The economic argument for banning illegal immigration is simple enough.

It takes away jobs from legal residents and over-loads the infrastructure with aliens who pay no taxes for its upkeep.
Building walls and campaigning for more police to patrol the border is the current American government policy.
Amnesty, which was first granted in the late 1980’s is up for review again. It has the advantage of registering aliens in the tax base.

The moral argument is more complex.

If there was no work at all, Mexicans would not come in the first place.
They take the most menial jobs at below the legal wage.
Forced repatriation splits families who have children born on American soil and are therefore legal citizens.
By not making a big issue out of it, America retains goodwill with a close neighbor.

The are a huge number of very rich living in Mexico, and Mexico does not tax them. You think US corporate welfare is bad, take a good look at Mexico. Most of the problems stem from a lousy, corrupt government.

Question 1. Is it morally right to deny work to impoverished neighbors?

Is it morally right for the US taxpayer to be burdened because of a foreign governments corruption. Is it morally right for Mexico to demand rights for their citizens illegally living in the USA, when they do not provide similar rights for those legally entering their land. Is it morally right for Mexico to be totally ruthless on their southern border, but demand we not be as ruthless. Is it morally right that illegals can purchase land in the USA, but citizens from other lands can only lease Mexican land. Is is morally right for US hospitals to have to close because illegals do not or can not pay their medical bills, last I heard 70 were shut-in LA. Is is morally right for illegals to enter our land and put us at risk for possible leprosy, TB, Hepatitis infection.

Are you getting the drift? You want more.

Read the definition of morality before throwing stones. This is what I discern to be immoral.

Question 2. Is the current policing policy the right approach?

It is not enforced enough. Hell, we need to be just as tough as Mexico is regarding its illegals immigrants.

Question 3. Is amnesty the right answer?

Nope. Deport them sounds fine by me. Shit, many do not know the language, refuse to assimilate, have the nerve to tell instructors to learn how to speak Spanish. Try going to Mexico illegally and demanding that they nead to learn English.

Question 5. If none of the above are right, what other suggestions are out there?

Jail and huge fines for those who hire illegals. Repeal the 14TH amendment regarding children born in the USA.

"The 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868 to protect the rights of native-born Black Americans, whose rights were being denied as recently-freed slaves. In 1866, Senator Jacob Howard clearly spelled out the intent of the 14th Amendment by writing:

“Every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States. This has long been a great desideratum in the jurisprudence and legislation of this country.”

The original intent of the 14th Amendment was clearly not to facilitate illegal aliens defying U.S. law at taxpayer expense. Current estimates indicate there may be over 300,000 anchor babies born each year in the U.S., thus causing illegal alien mothers to add more to the U.S. population each year than immigration from all sources in an average year before 1965. "

GROWL, this and the BS regarding Noble Islam really tick me off. Illegal is illegal. Plagarism is plagarism. Talk about euphamisms.

Hey, Magnet, I am not ticked at you. You are entitled to disagree, but these are two issues that really tick me off.

With regards,

aspacia

[aspacia]

@MagnetMan

Real estate along the Southern California Coastline has become prohibitive.

The Baja peninsula has nearly two thousand miles of thinly developed coast line with the climate just as sublime.

What about making it an international zone with America and Mexico actively involved in cooperative development? Workers from both countries will stream there.

Like Mexico will allow this. I doubt it as many illegals simply will not return to Mexico, even when unemployed in the USA. Mexico is very corrupt.

What do you know about the corruption in Mexico?

The tides in the Gulf of California develop over 5 billion HP. Enough renewable energy to light up both Mexico and the USA. How about a huge tidal energy development project as well?

Float this past Mexico and see how far it gets you. They do not give a shit regarding Mexico, the USA or the people, basically the government, and political cronies play the game to line their pockets.

Enough work and energy for millions for decades with masses of goodwill on both sides of the border.

Mexico will only go for this if they retain ownership of the land and the industry. Sure, come one, come all investors. spend you hard earned dollars to create a viable energy source, so we can legally confiscate you whole investment in 99 years.

What have you read reading Mexico, the politics, corruption, drug lords. Hum, how many drug enforcement officials were recently beheaded. Nice bunch.

With regards,

aspacia

[MagnetMan]

As a South African ex-patriate, both the agony and the irony of this American debate over illegal immigrants coming from Mexico, brings home many unpleasant memories.

The world at large was outraged by the rigid passbook laws that the South African authorities enforced during the apartheid era. If a black was caught in any white-built and white-owned town or city without a passbook, which stated the name and address of their employer, they were immediately deported back to their tribal homeland.

The reasons for instituting the passbook laws in South Africa were basically the same that disgruntled American’s are giving here. With a vast impoverished nation on one’s borders, the fear was that too many jobs would be taken away from legitimate citizens, and the infrastructure was not designed or funded to support a vast influx of illegal migrants who paid no taxes.

One of the moral arguments against the passbook laws was that all Africans had the right to work anywhere in South Africa. The white’s conquered territory that was traditionally once theirs.

That same territorial argument is pertiment throughout the South West in America.

So the moral question is: All the other immoral racist laws not withstanding, if enforcing passports for work was wrong in South Africa in order to protect jobs and city infrastructures, why is it right here in America?

[aspacia]

@MagnetMan

As a South African ex-patriate, both the agony and the irony of this American debate over illegal immigrants coming from Mexico, brings home many unpleasant memories.

The world at large was outraged by the rigid passbook laws that the South African authorities enforced during the apartheid era. If a black was caught in any white-built and white-owned town or city without a passbook, which stated the name and address of their employer, they were immediately deported back to their tribal homeland.

The reasons for instituting the passbook laws in South Africa were basically the same that disgruntled American’s are giving here. With a vast impoverished nation on one’s borders, the fear was that too many jobs would be taken away from legitimate citizens, and the infrastructure was not designed or funded to support a vast influx of illegal migrants who paid no taxes.

The is quite a bit of difference between the USA and apartheid South Africa. We have several million immigrants of all ethnic and language groups. Actually, we probably are the largest multilingual, multinational nation in the world. South Africa’s apartheid laws were based on race.

One of the moral arguments against the passbook laws was that all Africans had the right to work anywhere in South Africa. The white’s conquered territory that was traditionally once theirs.

If it was it traditionally once theirs, they did not develop it, the Dutch did. The Americas belonged to the Native Americans, we developed it. True the Native Americans were nailed big time, and have huge rates of alcoholism (genetic) and suicide. This is a stain on our history. Some tribes are doing quite well with the casinos, but this is not enough. What else can we do. Besides, this debate is regarding one set of conquerors battle another set of conqerors. BTW: the Spanish were far more brutal than the Brits or French.

That same territorial argument is pertiment throughout the South West in America.

Not really.

The aboriginals are Native Americans, not Mexicans. Also, the aboriginals probably migrated from Mongolia.

So the moral question is: All the other immoral racist laws not withstanding,

Again, an illegal is an illegal regardless of race. We have a huge number of legal Hispanic, Chinese, Vietnamese, European, Middle-Eastern, etc., immigrants who oppose illegal immigration. Illegals receiving a free pass to amnesty is a slap in the face of every legal immigrant and this includes my mother. My grandparents and father had to sign a legal lifetime sponsorship for her regard any social services. Illegals from Mexico, Central and South Americ are receiving a tax paid education that they cannot receive in other lands. We also pay for immunization for their children to enter our schools. They often do not pay for health services and, according to the AMA, they are responsible for the closure of 70+ hospitals in Los Angeles alone. They have brought leprosy, hepatitis, TB into my land. Both leprosy and TB were basically erradicated before this recent influx of illegals.

Fix you own land, and do not expect us to fix your problems. Mexico is one of the most corrupt nations in the world. They have a large number of the very wealthy, while 50% live in poverty. They have natural resources, oil, but their second largest economic resource comes from those lifing in the USA and sending money back to Mexico.

If amnesty goes through, which I doubt, they will also overburden our already overburdened Social Security System.

if enforcing passports for work was wrong in South Africa in order to protect jobs and city infrastructures, why is it right here in America?

I have just explained why. And do not play the race card with me, my maiden name is Candelaria.

I am so sick of the race card and victim game. Please, come here legally, jump through the hoops, assimilate and do not expect us to accomodate you, your language and culture.

Growl

[aspacia]

@The Hierophant

Taken from my blog:

Long before Christopher Columbus “discovered” America in 1492, there was a Viking settlement in what is now as Nova Scotia called “Vinland”, named after the great amounts of grapes said to grow there by the Norsemen who discovered it. The Norsemen had come to this strange new world for the same reason many later European colonists would - to wrest control of the abundant natural resources of the region from the native inhabitants of the area, whom they called “skraelings”. Try as they might, however, the warlike Vikings simply could not dominate the “skraelings” (known today as the Dorset), and thus were forced to flee the area and the entire continent within a few years of establishing their first colony in Vinland.

oswego.edu/~saraydar/331post … enland.pdf

"THE GREENLAND COLONIES

The final chapter of the Norse story in the North American region concerns the history of the two colonies established by Erik the Red in Greenland. Much is known of life in Norse Greenland from the sagas and from nearly two hundred years of archaeological investigations. In recent decades important new sites have yielded rich information about the Greenland Norse, including the “Farm Beneath the Sand” site. Here a farm that was occupied for 300 years was preserved in permafrost and yielded many spectacular artifacts including an entire door, loom, and whole animal carcasses. Studies of such sites enable scholars to ask how the Greenland colonies functioned and whether they died out as the result of a little Ice Age, overpopulation and depletion of natural resources, isolation from Europe, raids by pirates, Inuit (Eskimo) attack or territorial infringement, immigration to America, or simply gradual population loss. . . . Perhaps the most important outcome of contact was the familiarity Native Americans gained from European habits, behavior, and materials that helped them take best advantage of future European interactions. This information must have been passed down through time within Native societies, for when later Europeans arrived (for example, Martin Frobisher in Labrador in 1576-78), Inuit groups were already familiar with people they called Kablunat (white men) who came in big ships with interesting things to trade."

Here is the link:
nmnh.si.edu/anthro/outreach/ … hnote.html

You were saying.
They are not really positive regarding why the Vikings died out. Most believe it was environmental not battling the aboriginals.

To my mind, this interesting historical curiosity neatly parallels the current controversy over illegal immigration. Both the Norsemen and those we currently deride as “illegal immigrants” braved dangerous voyages to a strange new land in search of prosperity - for this, I can do nothing but admire them. Certainly, the quest for self-improvement brought the immigrants into conflict with the native settlers of the region, and yet, there is no need for it.

Humans have often battled regarding resources and possible threats.

We, Europeans, are all illegal immigrants. We took, through treachery, trickery, and the gun, every inch of land we now know as the United States from the Native Americans -

This is true of us and many other countries and cultures.

and yet even they are not “native settlers” of anything; in truth, we are all immigrants, having immigrated out of Africa in search of new lands to tame misty aeons ago. We are native to nothing; man is a wanderer by his very psychological makeup, constantly struggling with himself, others, and nature in an attempt to refine and hone himself. As I’ve said, life is change - he who does not change does not grow, and he who does not grow stagnates. This is as applicable to such human constructs as a “nation” as it is to the individual man.

Thus, I ask the nationalist to reconsider his position on the current situation. Are you not yourself an immigrant or a decendant of immigrants? Do you not believe that, through the act of immigration, our nation has not been anything if not improved?

Okay, you are attempting to apply previous mores from 500 or so years ago to present day mores. Doesn’t work. Hum, seems like the Picts were in England first. Then the Anglo Saxons, Gallic Celts, then the Normans. How far do we go back???

I have zero problem with legal immigrants, but we simply cannot afford to support the rest of the world. Saudi Arabia has problems with illegal immigrants too.

Indeed, without immigration, even illegal immigration, our nation would not exist.

Again, you appear to claim that the colonization of the Americas is illegal. Hence, we should all leave or pay compensation??? Hence, we should give more to Native Americans. Hence, the British should pay compensation to the Celts. Hence, the … should pay, hence the … should pay or leave. How far back do we go??

What bit of dirt has not been occupied?

Is it worth it to keep out the masses of unwanted, unwashed sheep at the expense of the few lone goats to whom all progress is owed?

I would hardly call 70% of the nation who oppose illegal immigration a few lone goats.

Do not kid yourself - most people of every social group are worms, fit only to wallow in their own wastes.

Speak for yourself.

However, in every group, in every nation and race and rung on the social heirarchy, there are always a select group of people with the power to pull themselves above the herd, and by this act gain the strength to pull their fellow men up with them.

Only when their fellow humans become ticked and outnumber those well off. Then, the well-off realize their position in threatened and create reforms or face overthrow. I am thinking King John, the many rich Democrats and Republicans at the moment. The Senate is a millionairs club.

The problem is that the tax payer is stuck paying for the illegal from other nations, their very poor’s health and education. Which I do not support. Many call for Atzlan, the return of the American Southwest to Mexico. Why, when they fled Mexico.

I am forced to question the concept of nationalism as well - in truth, there is little I am more opposed to. Patriotism has been the source of more death in the twentieth century than any other human reason for killing his fellow man.

Probably true. But I am a patriot, who supports the USA. Hilarious, you sound like a communist poly sci instructor I had.

The State is an arbitrary creation formed by the herd for its own benefit. The notion of politic itself is but an extension of this - an excuse for the weak to strive for stability and stagnation, for they fear all change.

Not really, many enjoy change and technological advances. We do not enjoy illegals demanding that we change to suit them.

Check the recent beheadings commited by Mexican drug lords. How about the elected Mexican Chief of police near the border gunned down 5 hours after his election. How about the Mexican Federalis, politicians, and police taking bribes from the drug lords. I really do not want this kind of change in my land.

Oh, yes, how about the fact that the very wealthy do not pay taxes. At least our corporations do pay, Exon paid billions.

But I fear I digress, and should finish it up. In closing, let it be known that immigration is not to be feared by the truly strong -

Sure if it is legal. I do not want another country’s criminals in my land.

not only is it admirable to brave the unknown in search of betterment for the self and those loved by the self, but the change brought by such immigration is absolutely essential for the continued longevity of any people. I only wish others would reach the same conclusion.

Another idealist.

Take a look regarding what illegals do.
eriposte.com/civil_rights/no … .htm#CRIME

[aspacia]

@Satori

I respect your right not to work with those who hire illegal immigrants. But this should be done because of the moral/legal standards not because of a disdain for a people. They are people too no? Do they not have families?

And have more children than they can afford because of their religion. Work two full-time jobs, and leave their oldest children to care for their siblings. This occurs all the time. Many of the children turn to gangs because they do not feel they have families. What ethnic groups have the largest number of gang members?

When we have only one dominant culture etc. it is done so in the name of opression and xenophobia certainly not in the name of order.

Define acting American for me.

It is economic, not racial. Acting American?? We are too diverse to pigeon hole.

[Satori]

Aspacia:And have more children than they can afford because of their religion. Work two full-time jobs, and leave their oldest children to care for their siblings. This occurs all the time. Many of the children turn to gangs because they do not feel they have families. What ethnic groups have the largest number of gang members?

Hmm, sounds a bit like ethnic stereotyping…or at least a hasty overgeneralization. Regardless my point was if you choose not to hire them do it for your own moral/legal sensibility and not because of xenophobic tendencies.

Aspacia:It is economic, not racial. Acting American?? We are too diverse to pigeon hole.

Misconstrued my post, I asked Muscular to define American because I found it to be too diverse as well.

[aspacia]

@Satori

Aspacia:And have more children than they can afford because of their religion. Work two full-time jobs, and leave their oldest children to care for their siblings. This occurs all the time. Many of the children turn to gangs because they do not feel they have families. What ethnic groups have the largest number of gang members?

Hmm, sounds a bit like ethnic stereotyping…or at least a hasty overgeneralization.

[.quote]

Census statistics:
“Our best estimates indicate that there were 383,000 births to illegal alien mothers in 2002, accounting for 42 percent of all births to immigrants and 9.5 percent of all births in the country. While this may seem like a surprisingly large share of births, it must be remembered that our own research, as well as work by the Urban Institute, Pew Hispanic Center, and the Census Bureau, indicates that more than one-fourth of the nation’s immigrant population is illegal. Moreover, because illegals come mainly to work, they are overwhelmingly in their primary reproductive years, comprising more than one-third of all immigrants age 18 to 39. Illegals tend to either gain legal status as they grow older or eventually return to their home countries. Therefore, the illegal population tends to be comprised of individuals in their 20s and 30s. In contrast, there are a larger number of older legal immigrants who have lived in the country for a long time and are over age 40. In addition, all prior research indicates that 80 percent or more of illegal immigrants are Hispanic, a group with relatively high fertility. For these reasons, illegal immigrants account for a much larger share of births than their share in the overall population or the immigrant population.”

They do not have exact number of children per illegal immigrant family.

My comment, or hasty generalization stems from 10 years experience in the K-12 Southern California Public Education system. This includes Fontana, CA. Look up the demographics sometime. The school district is zoned for single-family dwellings, but often have 3-4 families living in a 3 bedroom home. I am repeating what my students have told me regarding their life.

Regardless my point was if you choose not to hire them do it for your own moral/legal sensibility and not because of xenophobic tendencies.

How about our teens cannot find summer employment because of illegals. My son had difficulty too, high gpa, never in trouble. He finally found employment at the rifle range whose customers were really ticked regarding illegals.

Also, agriculture could be mechanized, but they do not want to pay for this. This is being done in other parts of the USA, but the US Southwest depends on cheap labor.

Aspacia:It is economic, not racial. Acting American?? We are too diverse to pigeon hole.

Misconstrued my post, I asked Muscular to define American because I found it to be too diverse as well.
[/quote]

I may be wrong, but Muscular may have meant not flying the Mexican flag without the Stars and Strips, speaking English, want to graduate from high school. Geez, do you have any idea regarding how many Hispanics have started speaking to me in Spanish then were offended that I did not know Spanish. I have had students and their parents tell me to learn Spanish. I told the parents to learn English and did not give a shit what the Vice-Principal said.

Why is it always the race card with liberals???

The “other” is a major economic drain upon my land, and also in Europe.

[MagnetMan]

@aspacia

I have just explained why. And do not play the race card with me, my maiden name is Candelaria.
Growl

I am afraid that you explained nothing of consequence. It seems obvious that you know very little of American history, let alone that of Africa and should not be commenting so authoritatively on such a sensitive international relations issue.

Race was not the issue in my commentary. There were thirteen ethnic language groups converging on the Industrial sectors of South Africa during the height of the apartheidf era. They are as different from each other as any ethnic group in Europe or Asia. Thus the economic problem of accommodation there was the same as the one here and the moral issue is identical, regardless of all the other immoral apartheid laws. If job-reservation was wrong there, then it is wrong here.

As to your other points about who developed what first.

Firstly if native Americans had not rescued the early East Coast settlers in their time of need, America as we know it today would not exist.

Secondly. The Spanish/Mexicans pioneered the South West long before East Coast migration began.

In conclusion:
Boundaries are poltical. We all started our migration out of Africa. This planet is home to a singe family. It is called mankind. Our attitude to our relatives should be far kinder and far more accommodating. That is the underlying moral issue. Hiding behind a totem flag cannot disguise it and making comparisons is an odius business which serves no constructive purpose.

[Satori]

Aspacia: How about our teens cannot find summer employment because of illegals. My son had difficulty too, high gpa, never in trouble. He finally found employment at the rifle range whose customers were really ticked regarding illegals.

So…how does this correlate with my statement about hiring people based on legal issues not simply because of ethnicity? I am sorry your child had trouble finding a job (I am 21) and I went through that but to blame the people, whom you cannot know for sure to be illegal unless you checked for there validity ( a rash assumption as perhaps they were more skilled or maybe other teens were ahead of him on the race to beat him to jobs.)

Aspacia:I may be wrong, but Muscular may have meant not flying the Mexican flag without the Stars and Strips, speaking English, want to graduate from high school. Geez, do you have any idea regarding how many Hispanics have started speaking to me in Spanish then were offended that I did not know Spanish. I have had students and their parents tell me to learn Spanish. I told the parents to learn English and did not give a shit what the Vice-Principal said.

Why is it always the race card with liberals???

Perhaps they are just proud of their heritage, under your logic it would not be ok for even the Irish to show their flags. Alot of Caucasian, afro-americans do not graduate High School in fact the ONLY people who dropped out in my school were caucasians. Does that make them un-American; not in my eyes. What about those who speak such thick English you can barely understand them? Shall we call them un-American? Not to be an ass; but if you are a teacher would you choose to isolate yourself from your Hispanic students by this opinion you have?If that is what Muscular feels to be American than I would question his morality readily.

As far as the race card comment: I am a moderate. I believe that immigration should be slowed or stopped. I just call people on the blatant and improper reasoning about their decisions.

[aspacia]

@MagnetMan

@aspacia

I have just explained why. And do not play the race card with me, my maiden name is Candelaria.
Growl

I am afraid that you explained nothing of consequence. It seems obvious that you know very little of American history, let alone that of Africa and should not be commenting so authoritatively on such a sensitive international relations issue.

Member Phi Alpha Theta (look it up) I am far more an authority regarding U.S. history than you Bucko. Besides, who made you God to tell me what I should and should not do.

Race was not the issue in my commentary.

Nope, it was left out to make your erroneous case. South African discrimination was built on race, and you know it. Our illegal immigration laws are not built on race. Faulty analogy.

There were thirteen ethnic language groups converging on the Industrial sectors of South Africa during the height of the apartheidf era. They are as different from each other as any ethnic group in Europe or Asia.

Yes, many dialects in Africa. Again, the discrimination was built on race. How many Whites were refused entry and discriminated against? None.

Thus the economic problem of accommodation there was the same as the one here and the moral issue is identical, regardless of all the other immoral apartheid laws. If job-reservation was wrong there, then it is wrong here.

The South African Laws were race based and you know it. Why hedge. Sure, the British and Dutch played the economic game care, but it no Whites were discriminated against.

As to your other points about who developed what first.

Firstly if native Americans had not rescued the early East Coast settlers in their time of need, America as we know it today would not exist.

What are you on about? Oh, yes, Thanksgiving. Remember that Roanoak was destroyed, no one helped. Columbus went back to Spain for a while and 300 of his people were killed. The colonists had a tough gig, or didn’t you know this.

Secondly. The Spanish/Mexicans pioneered the South West long before East Coast migration began.

Yes, so what. The Spanish were brutal to the aboriginals. Ever hear the term regarding the mother of La Raza? La Malinche. She is hated is Mexico.

In conclusion:
Boundaries are poltical.

They sure are.

We all started our migration out of Africa.

Probably.

This planet is home to a singe family. It is called mankind. Our attitude to our relatives should be far kinder and far more accommodating.

As individuals like you claim I should support all those coming here. Should. Oh, please. The immigrant is often far more brutal and a U.S. citizen.

That is the underlying moral issue.

Read the definition or morality for insight.

Hiding behind a totem flag cannot disguise it and making comparisons is an odius business which serves no constructive
purpose.

Sure it does, if it refutes your claims. BTW: you did not address several of my refutes.

I am LMFAO

[aspacia]

@Satori

Aspacia: How about our teens cannot find summer employment because of illegals. My son had difficulty too, high gpa, never in trouble. He finally found employment at the rifle range whose customers were really ticked regarding illegals.

BTW: it is [ quote] statement [ / quote] end statement If this does not set it off use [ . quote] [ /quote] I put space in between. I did the same when first posting.

So…how does this correlate with my statement about hiring people based on legal issues not simply because of ethnicity?

It is not based on ethnicity, it is based upon economics and cheap labor. Invalid claim.

I am sorry your child had trouble finding a job (I am 21) and I went through

I did not go through the same and neither did my other half, we are 53 and 56. Is it sinking in. Employers were begging us to come to work. Is the light coming on yet?

Again, your claim is invalid and illegals are hurting teen employment.

that but to blame the people, whom you cannot know for sure to be illegal unless you checked for there validity ( a rash assumption as perhaps they were more skilled or maybe other teens were ahead of him on the race to beat him to jobs.)

Geeze, more skilled to clear the rifle range of bullet and other debris, I doubt it. This was not a high skill job. The kid was far more highly skilled than I at 16. He was an AP student to boot and started applying for work in the Fall as he had a car.

Aspacia:I may be wrong, but Muscular may have meant not flying the Mexican flag without the Stars and Strips, speaking English, want to graduate from high school. Geez, do you have any idea regarding how many Hispanics have started speaking to me in Spanish then were offended that I did not know Spanish. I have had students and their parents tell me to learn Spanish. I told the parents to learn English and did not give a shit what the Vice-Principal said.

Why is it always the race card with liberals???

Perhaps they are just proud of their heritage,

You are a guest and learn the language and assimillate.

Hum, try going to a Mexican school and demanding that as a guest they teach you in English, see how far this gets your. How about being in Mexico legally and protesting some of the enviormental hazards–you will be deported. Try illegally entering illegally through Mexico’s southern border, hope you live. They have huge double standards, and like you play the race card.

under your logic it would not be ok for even the Irish to show their flags.

Nope, only fly your flag under the Stars and Stripes and show Old Glory not just your flag. Mum fly the flag of St. Geoge on the 4th of July, but under Old Glory. Get it!

Alot of Caucasian, afro-americans do not graduate High School in fact the ONLY people who dropped out in my school were caucasians.

Check the stats, most are not Caucasian. I read the graduation rates by ethnicity. Your sample is small. Also, only 1% of Cucausions are in gangs.

Does that make them un-American; not in my eyes. What about those who speak such thick English you can barely understand them? Shall we call them un-American? Not to be an ass; but if you are a teacher would you choose to isolate yourself from your Hispanic students by this opinion you have?If that is what Muscular feels to be American than I would question his morality readily.

Hilarious, many instructors hold the same opinions I do. Learn the language and assimilate. Immigrants need to assimilate, not the citizens acccomodate illegal immigrants… I am a citizen. When traveling mum made me take a year of French first, taught me norms, bread on the table, etc. What I am seeing is illegals expecting me to adapt to them, not vice-versa.

Look, I tell my students, “Hey, you speak two languages, you are smarter than me.” When I correct basic errors in spelling, punctuation and grammar, they know I am trying to help as I allow a low point rough draft first. If they do not read the comments, or contact me via email, tough.,

As far as the race card comment: I am a moderate. I believe that immigration should be slowed or stopped. I just call people on the blatant and improper reasoning about their decisions.

Like my reasoning was way off. Remember, I look Hispanic and many students relate to me. I have had only three bone heads that I really nailed.

Geez, do you have any idea regarding the health and economic impact this is causing the USA? Does not appear so.

aspacia

[Satori]

First and foremost thanks for helping me with the qoute thingie hehe

I did not go through the same and neither did my other half, we are 53 and 56. Is it sinking in. Employers were begging us to come to work. Is the light coming on yet? Again, your claim is invalid and illegals are hurting teen employment.

Population is growing…jobs do not grow exponentially. You are a baby boomer, small towns flourished rich industries had yet to be in every town i.e. Mc Donalds,Starbucks who are after sheer profit. Industries have certainly changed; I would blame them for the job issues not the immigrants who undoubtedly would need the money more, if they are the ones your child is competing with.

Geeze, more skilled to clear the rifle range of bullet and other debris, I doubt it. This was not a high skill job. The kid was far more highly skilled than I at 16. He was an AP student to boot and started applying for work in the Fall as he had a car.

Employers only care about how many hours you can work at that level. I took AP courses as well, they are essentially money savers as you can use them for general college course supplements. As close to the college experience as one can get prior to taking a college course; but I digress. My g/f is currently 21 and never sought a job until now and is still having great trouble finding one. Her father still has trouble with the market which we currently live in as he , like many others, has no four year degree from college. Blame once again the changing of respectable ideals held by business. Cut here, move here = profit. I got lucky by knowing someone and getting my foot into the restaurant business as a waiter. I do so wish luck was not the main matter at hand with jobs.

You are a guest and learn the language and assimillate.

Hum, try going to a Mexican school and demanding that as a guest they teach you in English, see how far this gets your. How about being in Mexico legally and protesting some of the enviormental hazards–you will be deported. Try illegally entering illegally through Mexico’s southern border, hope you live. They have huge double standards, and like you play the race card.

I am fairly fluent in spanish, italian, and english so the language thing does not bother me in the least. Because I am of many varying ethnicities and would appear to be either Hispanic or of African descent (depends on whom you ask). I do not believe I stated they should not speak English or make a valid attempt to learn it. It is quintessential for their self-improvement to learn such in the U.S. I simply say they should not be looked down upon or “forced” to. I also in no way said that America is a horrible place so I question the useage of the Southern border and protesting. I declare straw man arguments there. As for the race card; I never pulled it. I am a young man of non-Caucasian upbringing and have never proceeded to view the world as closed to me due to my race. Thanks for saying I have double standards

Nope, only fly your flag under the Stars and Stripes and show Old Glory not just your flag. Mum fly the flag of St. Geoge on the 4th of July, but under Old Glory. Get it!

Let them fly as they wish, would you rather they burn the flag? Or defecate on it? There is no amendment saying they cannot embrace their heritage on a flag.

Check the stats, most are not Caucasian. I read the graduation rates by ethnicity. Your sample is small. Also, only 1% of Cucausions are in gangs.

I did not state most who dropped out were caucasian I said the ones I knew of. I did not state it as a end all argument I simply used it to show how your “definition” of what is American when applied to people is faulty.
And that when used on Caucasians whom don’t graduate is not what would make them UnAmerican. I am well aware of the rates of graduation being a minority I am privy to the differential in education. But not graduating high school does not make you un-American; hell your generation thrived off getting jobs until the corporations went haywire. I grew up in a town where IBM once reigned supreme and now everything has outsourced and the Baby Boomers are left w/o anything because they didn’t have even HS degrees. No where did I mention gangs. I am aware of the ethnic gangs which are prominent. Random facts do not an arguement make.

Like my reasoning was way off. Remember, I look Hispanic and many students relate to me. I have had only three bone heads that I really nailed.

Geez, do you have any idea regarding the health and economic impact this is causing the USA? Does not appear so.

I respect your responses but when the reasoning is not sound well then…I call ya on it. You use personal experience and overgeneralizations to profess righteous knowledge of the facts. Sentiments blind one of awareness. I figured your age by your statements because often times the fickle qoute the days of old. I do respect how America was during your rearing but it is an amorphous being forced to change rapidly. America is what it is and will be what it will be. But it is not the America of past. Let it go, relax a little, and enjoy what you have. America will be fine. As far as I go, well I am well aware of the health and economic impacts.

Health insurance for the poor is unacceptable or in many cases not there. You may attempt to blame this on the Immigrants, but be realistic. Did they take the money by running up to the Capitol Hill and holding a gun against anyone’s head? I don’t believe so. Certain diseases will climb and insurance rates will hike for those who would carry said diseases (HIV is on the rise in many Latin nations). Even things like Tubercliosis will appear heavily as it often does in poorer people. But do you really believe that it costs so much money to help these people that you bleed for it in your own pocket? Maybe you should look at the Doctors and how they charge and not the sick people.

Economically it actually is pushing the U.S. to be a management nation. We do not have to worry about polluting our lands (because we are polluting their land). Prices are lower due to cheap labor, people have trouble finding jobs…welcome to the last 20 some years. Perhaps we can blame the Asian nations for making almost all your appliances in your house for why America is poor. Do you see your logic? You use and buy items which have been produced by people who took “good jobs” from the U.S. Now, the idea of a business is to make money I certainly don’t blame them for performing their function but it does not mean I do not find them morally reprehensible to some degree. So, is it really illegal immigrants or their countries or is it our policies on business?

I once again will affirm that I believe the U.S. should slow or stop illegal immigration. But, I still understand that the illegal immigrants are still people and have certain rights warranted by the Geneva convention so I would treat them as such.

[aspacia]

@Satori

First and foremost thanks for helping me with the qoute thingie hehe

[.quote]

I made the same mistake. Hey, I learned something.

I did not go through the same and neither did my other half, we are 53 and 56. Is it sinking in. Employers were begging us to come to work. Is the light coming on yet? Again, your claim is invalid and illegals are hurting teen employment.

Population is growing…jobs do not grow exponentially. You are a baby boomer, small towns flourished rich industries had yet to be in every town i.e. Mc Donalds,Starbucks who are after sheer profit. Industries have certainly changed; I would blame them for the job issues not the immigrants who undoubtedly would need the money more, if they are the ones your child is competing with.

Okay. But look around at who is polishing the floors in most grocery stores. Look at who is doing most of the mowing… These were jobs teens use to do. Hell, I even mowed yards for a few extra coins. By law employers are to pay a minimum wage, and illegals charge less. Yes, these businesses are to blame for this mess. The House may do something regarding this.

Geeze, more skilled to clear the rifle range of bullet and other debris, I doubt it. This was not a high skill job. The kid was far more highly skilled than I at 16. He was an AP student to boot and started applying for work in the Fall as he had a car.

Employers only care about how many hours you can work at that level. I took AP courses as well, they are essentially money savers as you can use them for general college course supplements.

Yes, we saved a almost a full two quarters of university expense because of AP tests.

As close to the college experience as one can get prior to taking a college course; but I digress. My g/f is currently 21 and never sought a job until now and is still having great trouble finding one. Her father still has trouble with the market which we currently live in as he , like many others, has no four year degree from college. Blame once again the changing of respectable ideals held by business. Cut here, move here = profit. I got lucky by knowing someone and getting my foot into the restaurant business as a waiter. I do so wish luck was not the main matter at hand with jobs.

Remember your wise crack regarding using personal experience in a debate??

Yes, my son’s fraternity eased him into well paying jobs. Hell, by the time he was a junior he was a manager and making more than me.

You are a guest and learn the language and assimillate.

Hum, try going to a Mexican school and demanding that as a guest they teach you in English, see how far this gets your. How about being in Mexico legally and protesting some of the enviormental hazards–you will be deported. Try illegally entering illegally through Mexico’s southern border, hope you live. They have huge double standards, and like you play the race card.

I am fairly fluent in spanish, italian, and english so the language thing does not bother me in the least. Because I am of many varying ethnicities and would appear to be either Hispanic or of African descent (depends on whom you ask).

Chuckle, yes. In the UK they think I am Black Irish. Hilarious. Took French and German, but lost most of this as I live in the Southwest.

Many citizens find it rather insulting when an immigrants tells them to learn Spanish to meet their needs. How about you learn English as you are in my country.

I do not believe I stated they should not speak English or make a valid attempt to learn it. It is quintessential for their self-improvement to learn such in the U.S. I simply say they should not be looked down upon or “forced” to.

Again, many of the immigrants attitudes are that we should accomodate them, and learn their language, and this ticks many off. Many teachers simply refused to learn Spanish as they have students from many lands. Geez, I have worked in high schools with 50+ languages. Congress is trying to make English the law of the land.

I also in no way said that America is a horrible place so I question the useage of the Southern border and protesting.

70% of illegals cross our southern border, many protest regarding their rights. Try legally entering Mexico and participating in a protest. You will be deported. Hypocrits.

I declare straw man arguments there. As for the race card; I never pulled it.

Splitting hairs. You said xenophobic, not exactly the same, but close enough.

I am a young man of non-Caucasian upbringing and have never proceeded to view the world as closed to me due to my race. Thanks for saying I have double standards

Wasn’t I discussing Mexico’s double standards.

Good, you are not playing the victim game.

Nope, only fly your flag under the Stars and Stripes and show Old Glory not just your flag. Mum fly the flag of St. Geoge on the 4th of July, but under Old Glory. Get it!

Let them fly as they wish, would you rather they burn the flag? Or defecate on it? There is no amendment saying they cannot embrace their heritage on a flag.

How about deport illegals who insult the flag. This is a citizen’s right, not an illegals.

Nope, it is considered bad form to fly your flag in another nation. This is what ticked many citizens off during the protests. Again, it is simply considered to fly the host country’s flag above your homeland’s flag as mum does.

You are right regarding the burning, defecating, etc., being legal.

Check the stats, most are not Caucasian. I read the graduation rates by ethnicity. Your sample is small. Also, only 1% of Cucausions are in gangs.

I did not state most who dropped out were caucasian I said the ones I knew of.

Sure, and my nephew was one of them. He shaped up and is doing well. This is a small sample. My opinions is also from a small sample in Southern California and Nevada. But this includes 15+ years of working with legal and illegal immigrants within the education system. That is, I deal with 200+ individuals daily from all walks of life. I am including administrators, students, classified, etc.

I did not state it as a end all argument I simply used it to show how your “definition” of what is American when applied to people is faulty.
And that when used on Caucasians whom don’t graduate is not what would make them UnAmerican. I am well aware of the rates of graduation being a minority I am privy to the differential in education. But not graduating high school does not make you un-American;

Again, most U.S. citizens welcome legal immigrants, heck most are more loyal than the natives. Again, my mother is a legal immigrant. What you do not seem to understand is that legal immigrants usually need a sponser. This means that they will work, pay taxes and not sponge off the welfare dime, learn the laws of the land, assimilate, become a citizen. Many illegals do not want this.

I really resent the xenophobe/race card that many play. Look around. We have more ethnicities and languages that probably any other land. Is the light coming on yet.

This is about the drain illegals cause to our society.

Illegals sponge of the welfare dime. I can provide the costs as well and it is in the billions. Illegals generally have no allegaince to my land, and many are a threat. Check the stats for prison populations some time. The coyotes are a menace and have had shootouts on the 10 over their human cargo. Look at the number of hospitals that have closed and the AMA claims this is because of illegal immigration.

hell your generation thrived off getting jobs until the corporations went haywire. I grew up in a town where IBM once reigned supreme and now everything has outsourced and the Baby Boomers are left w/o anything because they didn’t have even HS degrees.

Did not have high school diplomas. You are kidding right. This was true of my parents generation, but not mine. Is was considered shameful to receive an F when I attended school. Sure, many hippies screwed up, but many are very well off at the moment. They shifted to other professions, as I did when Via Voice came out. I knew clerical work would be gone soon.

At the moment, similar to the rural/industrial shift, we are shifing to a service centered economy.

No where did I mention gangs. I am aware of the ethnic gangs which are prominent. Random facts do not an arguement make.

Check out the stats regarding illegals and gangs. Hum, there is a really nasty one from, I believe El Salvador. They came and the Black gangs and all hell brok loose. “In the past 15 years El Salvador has experienced a huge rise in gang related crimes, and gangs in general. Some say that this was a result of the deportation of thousands of Salvadorans from the U.S, (mainly California and Texas) in the mid-90s. The gangs that Salvadorans had been involved in the United States began to show up in El Salvador. Today El Salvador experiences some of the highest rates of gang related crimes in the world. In response to this, the government has set up countless programs to try to guide the youth away from gang membership, but so far their efforts have not rendered any quick results.”
[/quote]
They were deported because they were illegal.

Like my reasoning was way off. Remember, I look Hispanic and many students relate to me. I have had only three bone heads that I really nailed.

Geez, do you have any idea regarding the health and economic impact this is causing the USA? Does not appear so.

I respect your responses but when the reasoning is not sound well then…I call ya on it. You use personal experience and overgeneralizations to profess righteous knowledge of the facts.

Hilarious, you use personal experience too. I do know regarding this issue and moved from California to Nevada because of this problem.

Sentiments blind one of awareness. I figured your age by your statements because often times the fickle qoute the days of old. I do respect how America was during your rearing but it is an amorphous being forced to change rapidly. America is what it is and will be what it will be. But it is not the America of past. Let it go, relax a little, and enjoy what you have. America will be fine. As far as I go, well I am well aware of the health and economic impacts.

No Way! And my voice, along with 70% of the nation’s US citizens voices are being heard in the House. The Senate bill is flaming out.

The topic is illegal immigration. You implied that the reaction to illegal immigration is xenophobic/racist. I simply pointed out that I look Hispanc and my mother is a legal immigrant to demostrate that we are pro legal immigration and not xenopohobic. I am well aware that the US economy has shifted from industrial to a service centered economy. Read Friedman’s The World is Flat. The agriculture industry need to automate to stem illegal immigration.

At least you have some idea of the economic and health costs. No, I will not relax on this issue.

Health insurance for the poor is unacceptable or in many cases not there.

Do you mean unobtainable because of the expense. Try going to Mexico and receiving health care with no money. They have shifted the burden on the the US taxpayer, along with educational costs, etc. Remember, we have enough US citizens who do not have health care because of the expense. I would rather take care of them.

You may attempt to blame this on the Immigrants, but be realistic.

It is called the law of the land. Hospitals legally and morally have to provide health care to the indigent. Mexico has no such law, hence another draw for illegals.

Did they take the money by running up to the Capitol Hill and holding a gun against anyone’s head?

They sue and scream regarding their rights, and the taxpayer is stuck paying for their health care.

I don’t believe so. Certain diseases will climb and insurance rates will hike for those who would carry said diseases (HIV is on the rise in many Latin nations). Even things like Tubercliosis will appear heavily as it often does in poorer people. But do you really believe that it costs so much money to help these people that you bleed for it in your own pocket? Maybe you should look at the Doctors and how they charge and not the sick people.

The cost is 70 billion in California. This is an old stat and it may be higher now.

My other half and I pay $5,000 each for good health care. Why should illegals take what should given to our poor citizens. Think…many hospitals are closing.

Doctors are saddled with huge insurance and education costs. Many have changed professions as they may be sued. Geez, just an MBA is setting my kid back $90,000. To become a doctor is much more expensive.

These poor, infected people are a danger. Check the crime rates, check the education costs.

Economically it actually is pushing the U.S. to be a management nation. We do not have to worry about polluting our lands (because we are polluting their land). Prices are lower due to cheap labor, people have trouble finding jobs…welcome to the last 20 some years. Perhaps we can blame the Asian nations for making almost all your appliances in your house for why America is poor. Do you see your logic? You use and buy items which have been produced by people who took “good jobs” from the U.S. Now, the idea of a business is to make money I certainly don’t blame them for performing their function but it does not mean I do not find them morally reprehensible to some degree. So, is it really illegal immigrants or their countries or is it our policies on business?

Yes, corporations are outsourcing and a blue collar workers are pissed as they will have to be retrained in other areas of employment. The skilled laborers in the computer industry are ticked too. Corporate America is in it for the bottom line, ditto for any other corporation.

You are shifting from illegal immigration to outsourcing and the service centered economy. ???

I am well aware that our nation for 30+ years has been shifting with way. We have to change and understand what our employment options are. We are in a global economy, but we still need to protect our citizens from threats crossing our border. This may be in the form of terrorism, disease, overburdening our infrastructure and social security system.

Read both Lou Dobbs and Friedman for insight regarding the shifting world economy.

Also, remember that we are not the only land that is burdened with this problem. China deports North Korean refugees; Mexico harshly nails any illegal entering her southern border, only Mexican citizens can own land. the Swiss only allow individuals to become citizens after residing ther for 12 years, and passing a test; you cannot become a German citizen unless of German ancestry.

We are not xenophobic, just simply expect people to legally enter our land, and we have a right to enforce this.

I once again will affirm that I believe the U.S. should slow or stop illegal immigration.

This only is occuring because we, the sovereigns of the land, have been screaming bloody murder.

But, I still understand that the illegal immigrants are still people and have certain rights warranted by the Geneva convention so I would treat them as such.

Sure they are people, and they are provided far more in the USA than in their homelands.

[MagnetMan]

@aspacia

Nope, it was left out to make your erroneous case. South African discrimination was built on race, and you know it. Our illegal immigration laws are not built on race. Faulty analogy.

America limits two thousand immigrants a year from the whole of Africa and more than ten times that amount from Europe. Why?

Yes, many dialects in Africa. Again, the discrimination was built on race. How many Whites were refused entry and discriminated against? None.

Zulu is not a dialect of Tswana, nor is Pedi a dialect of Sutu. These are distinct languages and cultures in their own right.

The problem of race discrimmination faced by European pioneers in South Africa was more complex than that faced in America and Australia by a factor of six to one.

Visit Watts or the Rosebud reservation today and tell me there is no discrimmination in this country.

How many “niggers” were lynched here simply for ogling at a white woman?

How many trade blankets were infected with small-pox?

How many “greasers” have to die trying to evade border patrols in their desperate need to find work?

A sanctimonious stance on these human issues, both now and in the past helps no one and is the base cause of why this problem will never go away.

The Age of national jingosim is about over. The world has become global and borders are increasingly passe. One needs to lean a little more to the center and recognize our common humanity and our common destiny.