Illusions of choices, Sacrifices, And Forced Compromises.

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
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( Would you like fries with that? Do want that supersized? :stuck_out_tongue: )

( A ametur dialectic between a civilian worker and the state.)

Civilian worker: I have graduated highschool and now I need to build my future in order to live a reasonable life.

The state: Try getting into college since we need more specialists and institutionalists in our nation in order to keep our nation held together.

Civilian worker: Hey that’s a great idea.

The state: Sure…

[Years go by ]

Civilian worker: Hey state I have filled out the applications and I have even applied myself in college but I just don’t have the capabilities to graduate by the standards of modern intellectualism or by the standards of the market economy.

What, Should I do now?

The state: There are plenty of blue collar jobs around. Go look at them. Some of them pay pretty “good” currency.

Civilian worker: Okay…

[ Months go by]

Civilian worker: Hey state, the only jobs that will hire me are jobs that pay barely over the minimum wage.

They will also only hire me part-time.

What happened to equality and fairness? What happened to my rights in living? What happened to the freedom of my own form of living?

The state: Are you still whining? Look I did the best I could for you.

I can’t help it if you aren’t college material. I can’t help it if you can get a decent paying blue collar job.

Just take the job at the fast food market and pay your taxes until somthing better comes around.

Noone ever said life would be fair. Get two jobs if you have to.

Work most of the week without having time for yourself and maybe then you will get some extra money.

Civilian worker: I don’t want to work two jobs every week.

I don’t want to work almost every hour of the week in having no free time to myself.

Civilian worker: I thought the government said it was built upon fairness and equality.

The state: Only to a degree.

Civilian worker: What degree?

The state: The degree in which I impose and choose.

Civilian worker: What about my choices?

The state: Your choices only exist in what I give you.

Civilian worker: You said if work at this minimum paying job maybe somthing “better” will come my way…

The state: Yes, I did say that.

Civilian worker: Yet there isn’t any real guarantee that will happen, is there?

The state: No there really isn’t. We live in a global market economy full of competition.

That is just the way things turn out. That is what we call “progress”. This is the existence of the world centered around “free” trade. :sunglasses:

Civilian worker: So “progress”, is basically me waking up 6 am everyday working a eight hour job that is miserable in which I hate where I get payed minimum wages?

“Progress” is, where I don’t get to keep most of my earnings?

“Progress” is, where I remain in deep alienation and isolation throughout my life?

The state: If that is all you are capable of in our marketable value system then yes I would say that is “progress”.

Civilian worker: How is my suffering and misery “progress”?

The state: Don’t tell me you are that naive. :sunglasses:

Civilian worker: What do you mean?

The state: How do you think us big fish come to exist?

Civilian worker: By preying on all the smaller fish? :angry:

The state: Precisely.

Civilian worker: You coward. You preach equality, morality and fairness but in the end of all that your just feigning virtue all the while you enslave people simultaneously in hypocrisy.

You survive on people’s desires, hunger, scarcity, suffering, enslavement and privation all the while you put on the mask of representative virtue.

The state: Wow you got me! Pretty neat, huh? Only a very few minority of people within our consuming empire ever realistically understand the state’s function. Don’t you feel privileged?

Most people foolishly still think that we as the state is looking out for them. In reality we only look out for ourselves.

What are you going to do now civilian? Haven’t you seen my squad cars and guns on the street? Resistance is futile.

I control the media and the minds of the majority. I control the horizontal and the vertical.

The civilian worker: If I am not benefitting from you or society why should I obey you?

The state: Because you should and also because you have no other choice. Do you see these soldiers and armed guards that I possess?

If you don’t like me go live in the woods, sticks and hills for all I care.

The civilian worker: I’ll find a way to go against you.

The state: Go ahead. We can make some room for you in our prisons.

The civilian worker: Let’s see how cocky you are with a gun in your face or in all the faces of the population who thrive on exploiting people just like me.

The state: Go ahead. We will have 20 armed guards units to take care of you. And in the end of all these transactions me and the government will still put up the illusion of equality, morality, fairness and security all the while we prey on people just like you.

Resistance is futile.

The state: You civilian worker of the lowly in complete slavery shall make a great “human sacrifice”, example, and fodder for our idealized conjecture of the “greater good” and for our historical conceived annuals of “progression” for
“global humanity.”

Either keep enduring the standardizations of poverty as the mechanical inferior,error and anachronism that you are in our idealistic world as the ideal punishment for your intellectual shortcomings or fight us where we will either kill/imprison you.

The civilian worker: There really is no morality in this world. The nihilists were right.

The state: Correct. But it is really funny because for a moment in your life we fooled you into believing that morality does exist for our own selfish benefit! Resistance is futile.

We might not be strong individually but we are strong in numbers! Resistance is futile.

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the state wants those failures! capitalism is like a pyramid, cheap workers are at its base and must form the majority irrespective of their location. this is how the western middle classes have so much, its because the greater part of the world suffers.

a guy recently said to me; whats mine is mine and whats yours is yours, but it isn’t true, the minority feed of the majority always have done and increasingly so over time.

joker; you should have your own forum, the amount of threads you do.

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I agree with you in what comprises capitalism. But then again I hate all government and political systems since I am a anarchist.

I have too much dam time on my shoulders to waste. :frowning: :confused: ](*,) ( Is unemployed again.)

( Is still looking for work that doesn’t require oneself selling themselves as a slave everyday to a job they don’t like. :laughing: )

( Joker simply won’t do it. Joker refuses to. Joker would rather have a hole in the head, in which the state probally would volunteer to do so for his constant inconveniences.)

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i am an anarchist too, unfortunately i do a job i don’t like that much [wouldn’t like any job really], ‘fortunately’ we are heading into recession so i am working 3 days a week at the moment ~ yay.

oh and i know how to take the system for all i can :wink:

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I live in the United States. Recession here too.

I try.

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civilian: but I want to get the same things as those who are better than me get. I’m tired of those better than me also making more money than me. This isn’t fair!

The state: It’s actually very fair. Those who are skilled get good jobs and have an overall better quality of life, while those who don’t have skills get miserable jobs, and a poor quality of life. Why is this unfair? What would be unfair is if both the skilled and the unskilled had the same quality of life in the state.

Civilian: But…but…my life sucks!

The state: It’s because you fail. The state is not responsible for your failure. In life there are predators, and there are prey. It appears you are prey to those stronger than you. For some reason, you hate me because of this. For some reason you think I fail because of this.

Civilian: But…that’s…not fair!

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[b]Erlir: I will reply to your post in kind. :slight_smile:

( Is still working on the first post in editing.) :-" [/b]

( Erlir I would plan on getting ready to have a fun dialectic here in a second. :stuck_out_tongue: )

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erlir

defines modern nazism!

it is apparently true but; it depends on weather we judge by the given or the attained! we don’t choose our birth or our skill basis and intellectual capacity. we can attain a higher intellect and skills to a degree but it is not our fault that we are limited ~ moreover it does not make someone better than another because they have better luck.

an example; is a model better than a an ugly girl [without eye of the beholder arguments]? no she was lucky to be born with good genes [as far as good looks go], she does nothing to attain beauty it is purely given.

all in all this means society is not just and fair as its primary basis is to judge people according to the given.

so what is a failure now?

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Limited resources, all a state is is a method of deciding who gets what. We have states because people with pens truly are more effective at convincing other people to do things their way then people with swords are. Hell, people with pens have people with swords working for them they are so goddamned convincing.

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So in the end we are slaves to the state like fanatical religionists are slaves to their religions and built temples.

That is what you are saying, yes?

And why exactly should we listen to these people with pens? :sunglasses:

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Yet the idealized notions of “better” is a illusional metaphysical device.

There is no “true” reality or some “better” life apart from what is actuality.

I understand what you are saying on the civilian’s part and my only reply would be, why shouldn’t the civilian have those things?

For whom? :sunglasses: Those benefitting from it? Yet many don’t benefit from the state.

Infact only a tiny elite benifit from it.

Not unfair. Hypocritical maybe…considering that the state speaks of equality, fairness and morality but in return does the opposite of what it says it is out to do.

This right here is specifically why nihilists describe “god” as being dead in a world where prayer is useless in that people don’t have to anything they don’t want to in a world without gods not to mention that morality is equally dead in the world if not useless since the use of morals always brings about the opposite of what it promises.

Of course morality is useful for those deceiving the populance with morals for their own benefit but beyond all that it is quite meaningless.

Upon the understanding that morality and ethics is deception, why should one obey?

Of course the civilian’s life sucks. He or she is a slave. The rest of the populance sees their utility in living as only being useful as a sacrifice for their idealized conjectures on living and existence of some fictional make believe “greater good.”

The government that the civilian onced believed in has basically smacked them in their face supporting the very exploitation that brings about his or her suffering in everyday living.

So if one fails to be the “ideal” creature of a large entity’s convenience much like the old Spanish inquisitional church of hundreds of years ago,do they then become a necessary sacrifice at that point? Is that what you are saying?

Okay. Well if people who live within the state are owed nothing and if such people are not benefitting from the state, why should they obey?

Great! Why can’t I start raping, pillaging or killing other people for my own selfish desires and benefits?

If it is beneficial for the state in being a ruthless predator, it can be beneficial for me too. :sunglasses:

Yet this magical majority entity under the state needs mass protectionism because without such devices the oppressed would turn against them in slaughtering them all. Explain that, Erlir. Why do the stronger need protection?

Not really. I don’t know about other people but I myself would just like to kill my oppressors without the useless hysterical whining of morality.

I could easily rid myself of hate in the act of murder.

Without the religious notions of morality or some ridiculous notion of a higher power things would be fair equally for the civilian and his oppressors. ( In combat.)

But the majority outlaws combat under mass protectionism under morality or ethics because they lack the will to fight since they have everything handed down to them so easily under their constructed fictions of occupation and entitlement all the while they feign virtue in order to hide their secret desires as being tyrants themselves.

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Yet some are clearly born with skill while others aren’t. Within the state these people succeed. It doesn’t matter whether their skill was attained through hard labor, or they were born with it. Point is they have it, and they succeed because of it.

And neither is it the states fault that you can only get so far with the skills you posses. Agree?

I don’t see why the manner in which one goes about acquiring some skill matters.

I don’t see why effort is so much valued. Why are genetics so undervalued? Look at the bottom line. The bottom line remains that the girl born beautiful is in more of a demand than the girl born ugly.

Let’s say you have this guy who works his ass off day and night for 30 some years and finally attains a skill. Another guy is born with “good genes” and manages to attain the same level of skill in a couple of years. The bottom line is they both have the same level of skill.

Easy. One who possesses a low level of skill. Whether it be because they were born with “bad genes” or whether they procrastinated too much, or whatever, is irrelevant. The state, if it is to succeed, should allow for those who can, to do. The state would be a failure, in my opinion at least, if it helped those without skill get a position which could be done by someone better qualified. Affirmative action, for example, or positive discrimination, as it’s called some places, is a sign of a failed state.

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:laughing:

Sure, why not. Allow me to rephrase then.

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Noone is born with anything. What you really mean is that some people are better at acquiring arbitrary skills in comparison to others. My reply would be, so what?

Why does specialization matter? Why does any of this matter? Because you and the state, says so? :sunglasses:

So in other words these lowly people in comparison to popular desired skills of the status quo are sacrificed and used as fodder within the state’s conceptualized concieved notions of the majority or “greater good”, where morality is just bullshit used in order to get what people want, right?

Be honest about it, Erlir. :sunglasses:

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Yet the market, state or all of civilization is comprised of fantasies, fictions, and pretensions that beyond our hysterical absurdity means nothing to the cosmos beyond us all.

Why shouldn’t the civilian, dis-obey? Why should the civilian who is obviously not benefitting or enjoying life within the populance, obey?

It would seem that the state is arguing from a bankrupt position and in actuality there exists no such reason at all beyond threats of violence.

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erlir

yes that is the hard fact of the matter. what i am saying that it doesn’t make one person ‘better’ than another, nor does it make the state right to endorse that fact. a mature fair state [if possible] should treat people fairly in terms of equal opportunities which we are moving further away from esp, in terms of education.

absolutely. the state should do all it can to even things out tho, i mean the wealth divide is vast.

what i meant was that it doesn’t make one person better than the next if they were born with x or y attributes ~ it isn’t something they have achieved.

yes but she isn’t beautiful she has good genes, it doesn’t make her better. but yes the bottom line is that it will get her far.

perhaps we can say that genetics do count as our ancestors started with no skills and limited intellects, we are a product of that process. this idea has dangerous implications though; can we say that africans have lesser genes because they haven’t been developing as we have? this is why you have to have a fair basis for society, in the end it comes down to nazism or liberalism [or anarchism [as i see it]].

i agree entirely.

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You question is incomplete. You need to have a subject to whom I can address an answer about. For example, if your question was “Why does specialization matter to a businessman?” my answer would be, because a person specialized in a field will yield a more favorable effect than someone not specialized. Obviously these things don’t have an intrinsic value to them, and if they did, I couldn’t speak meaningfully about them.

I’m not sure what you’re on about, but I think…yea, the lowly people do end up having a shittier life than those with desirable skills. I think that’s a sign of a good successful state when the lowly people end up having a shittier life than those with better skills.

Who’s morality? Which morality?

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So? What’s your point? It matters something to me, regardless of whether it matters something to cosmos, apart from me.

Who’s saying you shouldn’t disobey? You just have to live with the consequences.

Well, for whichever reason, the majority would disagree with you.

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off course it doesn’t make a person intrinsically better. But it does make a person more desirable, and in the end, that’s the only standard for value that exists. Noone can speak meaningfully about intrinsic value that a person might have. Even those that say we are intrinsically equal are full of crap. No conclusion can be reached with respect to intrinsic value. In the end, all we have is our own personal desires and opinions, so when I speak of a skill being better or worse, I mean about that skill that it is more desirable or less

I don’t think the state should do this. The wealth divide is vast, but if this is to change, then the poor, if they are capable, should do something about it. Not the state.

Maybe not better, but definitely more desirable.

This word, “better” is a problem.

I think one can fairly conclude that Africans have genes that make them prone to building a civilization a certain way. Whether that civilization is better or worse than European civilization is a matter of opinion. But, if your opinion is that European civilization is better than African, then you must admit that Europeans have better genes than Africans, at least with this only effect in mind.

I’m glad. :slight_smile:

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Finally a good thread and ironically it was made by–JOKER… I’ll come back to this one!

:smiley:

ILJoker.com