Im a Postmodern newbie...

I just cannot grasp postmodernism (PM) fully. It seems like I always get confused. I have a couple of questions, that hopefully will lead to more questions, if thats ok.

First question:
As I read about postmodernism, I have to ask:

  1. is PM it AGAINST science? Is it against “knowing” emeprically?
  2. How do you do science with PM?
  3. Is there such a thing as PM logic?
    4.am I being too narrowminded on the notion of PM?

I try to read some books, but I just DO NOT get it…I think discussions serve me better…

I have a question.

If postmodernism is to history what now will be to the future, will there not be a post-post-modernism eventually?

I would suspect so. In that case, I would naturally assume that there is no post-structuralism, but rather a reapplication of classical concepts and disciplines in philosophy. It might be considered “philosophy turning the gun on itself,” buts its a bluff, see, for desk-jockeys who don’t want to work.

(I seriously need to come up with some new material. This desk-jockey stuff isn’t going to fly for long, since most of you are, or will be, just that.)

did I break some rule?
Im really just seeking some answers…
am I a slacker?

Yes, but if we’re being strict the Modernists started it…

No, it’s just that ANY name for what ‘poststructuralism’ is trying to say is inadequate.

I dunno, you might get a few of the newer posters but I suspect that you’re beyond cult-worship here and firmly in the realms of entryist renegade. Though even that’s just a term and you’ll loathe it for being such. I’ve been spending much of my evening browsing videos of the Asian Tsunami (amateur footage of this event is nothing short of heart-stopping) and all the movies I can find of the ongoing hostilities in Iraq. Fascinating stuff. Really, sack off ILP for 10 minutes and go and look up some of this shit.

No, you aren’t a slacker. You’re just a latecomer on detrop’s ongoing commentary on the collapse of rational civilisation, particularly philosophy. He’s a poststructuralist in denial.

  1. is PM it AGAINST science? Is it against “knowing” emeprically?

No, not per se. Rather it sees science as having an appropriate remit, like all knowledge forms and convenient practices, and the task of critics as to monitor, albeit imaginatively, the boundary of that remit.

No, it isn’t against empirical knowledge. A great many ‘postmodernists’ were empiricists of varying sorts.

Same way you do it before, practically. While science is done it remains almost entirely unproblematic for the philosopher, postmodern or otherwise.

No, not really. Well yes. No. Perhaps. It really depends on what you mean by ‘logic’.

That’s the sort of answer to expect. I don’t have the inclination right now to write my postmodern treatise on logic but if you study the transition from the earlier to the later Wittgenstein (including a lot of the background to the earlier stuff like Russell and Frege and Moore) then you’ll probably get somewhere towards answering that.

Not that I’ve noticed, no…

Thanks for the answers! I wasnt sure if I should come back, that seemed to be a pretty sarcastice response, thus I thought I was starting an annoying thread…since Im a a newbie and all…

I’ll definately check out those reads, if I can understand anything they are saying when I read them.

i have more questions if y’all dont mind:

  1. whats the difference between poststructuralists, and postmodernists?

  2. What does postmodernism say about the supernatural?

  3. Can one read up all things concerning physics, and chemistry etc… and have knowledge about the origins of creation? (can science disprove God?)

  4. how do you “prove” in PM?

Sorry for my english, -it’s my second language. With that explained, what does

mean? whats a remit? Sorry- Im from Brasil and Im jst getting into this stuff. thanks for all patience in answering my questions

R9 - These “post” guys - they are not against anything - they are simply not for taking a stand on anything. Poststructuralism is the “art” of not taking anything seriously, in an aloof, black-turtleneck-and-beret sort of way. Like 80’s punks, except that they take showers.

This movement is analogous to when it became vogue to define art as that which is accepted by the Artworld. I forget which “philosopher”, which Aesthetician (read: interior decorator with a minor in philosophy from a Catholic school) came up with that idea, but it really made for some great cocktail party/gallery opening smalltalk. So now we extend this idea to philosophy being what “philosophers” talk about. Fuckin’ period. Philosophers too frightened to have anything like a value that they wish to espouse are postmodernists. Frightened that they will be seen as uncool by someone - the risk you take for displaying a value beyond a taste in wine.

Philosophy is a war of words. It’s a vicious street-fight - kicking and biting allowed. Those who are too afraid to have their balls bitten off (Oh - let’s not let European Emotionalism fail to get noticed for its role here! - you may know this as Existentialism.) may wish to take away the weapons used in the battle - words. “Ahhh! We take away their guns, and we’re cooler than them! It’s like a movie we always wanted to star in!”

I’d say that poststructuralism is for girls, but kids have more guts than that. We use words to think. Get over it. Or become a postmodernist. It’s the ultimate unassailable position - because it’s all about not having a position.

I hope that clears some things up for you.

Fausty

You da man, Fausty.

what are you faust?

White guy, 48, american, average height, could lose ten pounds, very goodlooking. Okay, I lie.

You mean what “ism” am I? I am what I call a contextualist, which is a variation (mostly of focus) of Nietzsche’s perspectivism. Strict materialist. No allowance whatever for metaphysics (a fiction). Not much concerned about epistemology - just don’t care much. Happy in a Newtonian world. Influenced by Dewey and Russell, Ayer and Rawls (to a point). Common sense is acceptable. Is that what you want to know?

I know someone who recently has taken a course on critical theory. I had no idea what people learn in that class, but he showed me his final, and it was all about this kind of stuff.

He spoke of the interpreter as creating reality and two kinds of truth. One was like absolute truth and the other was like an evolving truth. He called those who hold to absolute truth metaphysical thinkers and used his new doctrines to beat down a person he considers to a metaphysical thinker.

I’m guessing since the interpreter is the creator of reality he can interpret anything he wants as absolute or evolving truth. If he holds metaphysical thinking dangerous then he can use his new doctrine to deligitimize anyone he does not agree with just by calling the person a metaphysical thinker, which is against the supreme law. I don’t know if it really requires refuting of the other person’s ideas.

Anyway, that’s just what I got from his essay…

R9,

Assuming that you’re still looking at this…

I intended no sarcasm.

Poststructuralism/ists are dealing in specific intellectual matter, well, most of them anyway. All to do with the collapse of the phenomenological enquiries that have dominated European philosophy since Kant/Hegel. Postmodernists deal in absolutely anything and make out that they are being clever or intellectually radical or just plain ‘cool’ by talking about absolutely everything according to the same set of relativistic terms.

Nothing in particular, to my knowledge, though the metaphor of the spectre/ghost is commonly used in poststructuralist lit. crit. (my speciality)

No. Science cannot disprove God. Nor can it prove God. One can read as much science (i.e. metaphysics in denial) as one likes, it doesn’t provide one with anything but a collection of beliefs more or less borne out by certain interpretations of empirical experience.

One doesn’t, really. Or at least, one accepts that all proof is provisional.

What I mean by ‘remit’ in this context (without getting into the problems of the concept ‘context’) is ‘the area in which something has authority’. Just as one might say that a football referee’s remit is enforcing the rules of the game one might say that science’s remit is primarily engineering - the design and construction of bridges and buildings and vehicles and so on, rather than anything to do with ethics or politics.

Postmoderism can involve taking an agnostic approach towards the subject of absolute truth, accepting absolute truth as unknown and probably unknowable. Its the decaying edge of the Enlightenment.

thanks so much for the information somoneatthedoor!! :smiley: I wasnt refering the sarcastic comment to you…

I have more questions!

  1. Is PM relativism? I kept reading that it was not?

  2. What is spectre/ghost? What does the poststructrualist(PS) say about the supernatural?

  3. what are the limitation within science, that would lead someone to be a PS isntead of a modern?

  4. Im struggling to understand why science can’t explain ethics and politics, any help? Couldnt research (understanding a person’s genes, brain chemicals, psychology, and things) explain alot?

Xander, I disagree that PM is the decaying edge of the Enlightenment. PM’s may think that, but that ship sailed long ago. I do agree that PM represents a sort of agnosticism, which I prefer to call “Epistemic Ballessness”. Just a little technical term that I have coined. What they really accept as unkown and unknowable is their own position, or perspective, which is an entirely different matter. And I don’t mean simply to rant in saying that.

Nietzsche’s perspectivism disallows anything like an objective truth, but does assign a value to statements. Ayer assigns a value to statements. Russell does. PM is the Existentialism of the Word - that the word exists first, and then the thing it signifies. This is not an entirely unpopular idea, but it is an ill-conceived one. It is contrary to common sense, our intuitive grasp of language, to science - to every vector of knowledge. That we cannot understand language in this way - literally cannot understand it, undermines the PM view from the outset. Simply to deconstruct language serves no purpose, but beyond that, is logically impossible (which is fine with PM’s, I know).

But most people simply cannot accept this - we rely on language to represent, if not “reality”, then at least our thoughts. Every notion that we have of what a symbol is requires “representation”. Every notion of perception requires some concurrent notion if representation. PM’s would have us believe that even lies, falsity, illusion are not represented by (you pick) words, signs, symbols, language. PM’s seek to remove reference. There is no One Great Thing that is to be considered a Prime Referent - but that is no reason to discard reference altogether. Everything refers to everything else. That this is circular is not the same as to say an argument is (logically) circular. PM’s have made the error that circularity of representation is the same sin as logical cirularity.

Far from ushering in a new era, they have set philosophy back to a sort of Platonic misunderstanding of language, but in a way that is at least a magnitude greater. For it is not simply the verb “to be” that they misunderstand (as Plato did) but the word “word”.

Interesting. So what might better fit as the decaying edge of the Enlightenment? If we aren’t in the decaying edge of the Enlightenment then where are we?

Nietzsche is now the first modern philosopher. Along with Marx and Freud, he ushered in what is, philosophically, the post-atheist era. While the general zeitgeist has not caught up, it will.

Philosophy gave birth to ideology, in the modern sense, through Marx. That Marxism didn’t last doesn’t matter - it’s what it spawned that does. Sociology overtook anthropology, largely because of Marx. That was a sea-change in how we live our lives.

Philosophy gave birth to psychology (as a budding science) through Freud. That was an even greater change in how we think.

Philosophy no longer has to answer the question “So what about God?” because of Nietzsche (through other that followed, largely). That’s a biggie, too.

We no longer need to ask “How is this related to God?” We ask, “How are we related to each other?”

This is a simplistic rendering, but I have to go out and get drunk, soon.

Names of eras always come about after era is at least well underway. Call this “Post-Atheism”. Atheism assumed as an operating principle, if not the personal motive of most people. Nietzsche, Freud and Marx assumed this. Politics, social policy, science as a social entity, public speech, morality, government - these will never be the same again. The damage was done a hundred years ago.

Existentialists, post-structuralists, and other cowards are expressing an emotionalism that highlights this loss of God in our public lives.

Call it the Age of Constructive Nihilism. I’m not sure what that means, but it has a certain ring.

Faust/Xanderman,

From my reading and thinking, PM is a reaction to modernity (like I said, they started it be calling a period ‘modern’, thus forcing PMists to make up the even dafter term ‘postmodern’) and not specifically to the Enlightenment. Nietzsche and Hume battered seven bags of the brown stuff out of Enlightenment philosophy prior to modernity even being named as such. Modernity was, in many respects, a reaction to Nietzsche and Hume’s (and others) sacrificing of the Enlightenment goat and PM is a reaction to that reaction.

This is grossly simplified, I know, but chronologically accurate. An amusing thing to note is that the term ‘postmodern’ was invented at least as early as the 1910s, the decade prior to the one that most historians identify as the pinnacle of modernity (particularly in artistic/cultural history).

R9,

Some postmodernist writing is just relativism with new words. Technically people class Derrida and Barthes as postmodernists but neither come close to being relativists, so it’s a mixed bag full of confusion. Just bear in mind that for some, postmodernism is a means to getting relativism back on the philosophical agenda.

A spectre or ghost is traditionally conceived of as the spirit of a dead person (or other thing, but generally a person). Poststructuralists use the ghost metaphor to highlight some of the weaknesses in the binary opposition of presence/absence - the ghost being something that is neither there nor not there. The ghost resists such an opposition.

Science presumes that ‘natural laws’ are ALWAYS in effect, regardless of whether or not that is demonstrated. When I push the button to turn on my computer and it turns on I merely accept that the computer is working. For the scientist, however, they assume that the computer works because of recieved wisdom about how the computer works. Put simply, we assume it works because of the way that we built it, we assume that our engineering is the sole reason for the computer functioning correctly. Now, it could be any number of things, but the scientist conveniently ignores that.

To me, science is no more or less than a set of convenient beliefs and rituals and as such is epistemologically identical to religion.

Science never explains, it only ever describes. Monkey see, monkey name. This is from Nietzsche, however, and as such isn’t a postmodern argument.

Psychology isn’t remotely scientific, or logical. In fact, I’ve no idea why we even keep psychology going, except that a lot of people make a shedload of money out of it.

The ever-sharpening blade of course.

  1. is PM it AGAINST science? Is it against “knowing” emeprically?

As Lyotard famously contrived, Postmodernism is “an incredulity towards meta-narratives.” He did not say, please note, Postmodernism is “against meta-narratives,” only “an incredulity.” The significance here should be self-evident: PoMo is merely skepticism elevated to its most sublime form, where everything falls apart (even language, as Saussure began to show and Derrida followed up with, is a metanarrative that is to be dis-trusted for a conveyance of meaning).

  1. How do you do science with PM?

I’m going to assume here you don’t mean Hegel’s notion of “Science,” as that would be something which would warrant book-length responses. So I’ll assume by “science” you mean chemistry, physics, mathematics, and so on. In that case…the same way it was done before PoMo.

  1. Is there such a thing as PM logic?

Is there such a thing as existentialist logic? Well, it depends on your definition of logic, by and large, and also in what sense you mean “PM logic” – as “the logic of PoMo” or “the logic Postmodernists’ use”? In the former case, yes; in the latter case, sure, but only insofar as they are linked back to Lyotard’s definition. Just as phenomenologists are all studying “phenomenology,” there is not a set logic for doing phenomenological research – and even when there was such a logic, i.e. Hegel, it was revised by later thinkers and applied in different way, i.e. Husserl, Hyppolite, Kojeve, Sartre, etc.

4.am I being too narrowminded on the notion of PM?

By very definition anyone will always be too narrow-minded for the notion of PoMo. Insofar as it is the very unraveling of meaning itself, it becomes impossible, at least for the human subject, to comprehend its full range. Zizek offers a nice idea here: PoMo-Marxist scholars cling to and espouse the ideas of Marxism/PoMo and hate the Capitalist system, but in their very doing of this, it becomes for them a fetish, a way for them to operate in the very Capitalist system they hate, such that it ultimately loses its own meaning and impact.

And as for your other set:

  1. Is PM relativism? I kept reading that it was not?

Relativism is not, in fact, PoMo. PoMo articulates itself as Lyotard did – which does not mean “meaning” does not exist.

  1. What is spectre/ghost? What does the poststructrualist(PS) say about the supernatural?

A spectre/ghost could well be defined in an infinite number of ways. The definition I like stems from Lacan’s notion of the ghost (I assume you are referring to “spectre/ghost” as being related to a zeitgeist, but it works regardless): a ghost is not so much disembodied consciousness as it is dis-enconscioused bodies. I’ll let you figure it out.

  1. what are the limitation within science, that would lead someone to be a PS isntead of a modern?

PoSm and PoMo vary from each other in ways that, to the unexperienced, seem trivial. I find the best way to think of this is that a post-structuralist has lack of faith in structures, not in knowledge itself.

  1. Im struggling to understand why science can’t explain ethics and politics, any help? Couldnt research (understanding a person’s genes, brain chemicals, psychology, and things) explain alot?

This question has tormented philosophers from the ‘50s onward, particularly the psychoanalysts. The standard response to the behaviorists’ claim that we are merely conditioned to react in certain ways based on certain gene-patterns is: sure, but do you feel every action you make is simply a set of conditioned reflexes? Do you actually feel that you are doing what has been pre-programmed into your body? To this, behaviorists can generally only respond, “No, we don’t.” This suggests something deeper than silly biological sciences can get at; while I’m not advocating the notion of a Soul or a Spirit (Mind), I am saying there is certainly something more that we cannot (yet) get at with science, and which still relies upon the dutiful work of philosophers.