Im sorry, but...

i just cant stand all of this metaphysical goddery. not without first principles. so this is what i ask politely all those who believe to do. simply prove that there is a logical connection between the existence of god and a person’s obeying him. prove to me that the holy books are able to be seen as the word of god. ( i do not ask for people to prove that their religion is correct, all i want is a direct connection between holy writ and the word of god) i would very much appreciate any ideas as to why god should exist, and whether he does exist. i want your explanations to make sense, no metaphysical gibberish. i admit, i am an atheist, or rather an agnostic, but i simply cannot understand the line of reasoning religion takes. it is so illogical! it appeals entirely to the intuitive, and i do NOT trust the intuitive entirely (i trust it somewhat). i understand if you want to call me an unbeliever, and this is true. however, can we keep this civil?

thank you all for listening.

Well, you asked for it. Here’s proof that God exists.

We are something right? Then you would also have to agree that nothing also must exist because everything in this universe is relative. Now, when we think, a thought, it’s just an image. This image is no physical quantity, occupies no space, can be perceived by us and yet it exists in a dimension other than we know of because it does not follow the logical laws of this universe we live in. So, would you agree that this image which is nothing could coincide with our spirit which seems to be from another realm too? In which case, the spirit keeps track of everything we do and stores it as info in the form of images. When we die, our spirit still lives. I believe that we remember everything from here in the spirit world, but not when we come back to this world again. And because we are all unique, so we must carry some baggage from our previous life and that makes us unique here. Right? So, if this spirit you call God, then God exists, but it will have the same power as we do, in which case, it will take time for God to put things right if they go wrong. Whatever…I can’t put in everything here, but I hope you get the message.

Don’t worry about that task yet, BeenaJain.

First, define what “God” is.

Then worry about whether or not “it” exists.

Good luck.

Because people want to satisfy there addiction to love and many couldn’t live with the thought that they just lived, died, and that was it. Plus you know, its nice to have the friend on your side that knows everything, can do anything, and loves you no matter what you do.

I love God

Beenajain, you are jumping ahead of yourself-just because a thought doesn’t seem to obey the laws of our physical universe doesn’t mean it isn’t a part of the physical universe. And the Spirit bit. where’d that come from? If you think, then you have a Spirit? I think that is fundamentally flawed.

Nanook

"“Beauty is a bikini wax and waiting for your nails to dry. Beauty is a colored pencil, scribbled all around your eye. Beauty is a pair of shoes that makes you want to die. Beauty is a lie.- Frank Zappa”

You realise that Zappa was being satirical?

Did you ever hear of ‘plastic people?’

Or the ‘idiot bastard son?’ - “The father’s a Nazi in congress today, the mother’s a hooker somewhere in L.A.”

okay, let me see if i get the gist of your argument, okay?

i dislike your assumption that reality is subjective. or merely you mean that reality is relative in terms of measurement. in that case, a true enough assessment.

a thought is not merely an image, and it does have physical instantiation. namely, the neuronal activity of the brain. Dualism is an intellectually untenable position. thoughts both occupy space (in the meme pool - although that is debatable- and in the brain’s neurons and dendrites and axions) to infer that thoughts occupy a different dimension is fallacious. and i agree with what ajax said.

you assume the existence of the spirit without proof. no one has successfully proven the existence of spirit. dualism again. also, even if i agreed with your assertion of the otherness of thought, this doesnt make it ergo ‘nothing’. i see you ascribe a non-materialistic idea of cognition.

belief doesnt wash with me. not as an explanation for god. can you measure the spirit? is it materialistic? is it made of matter? does anyone really know what it is? questions all. i do not outright deny the possibility of the existence of spirit. that would be foolish. i merely deny the probability. you are entitled to your beliefs, but they dont work in arguments.
basically, you beleive in a non-omnipotent god as a reflection of ourselves. fair enough, and probably more likely than an omnipotent god. but it isnt convincing.

Sorry, it’s intuitive. Get out there, in the real world and experience it. If you can’t feel it, No-one can help.

Wise,

I’ve got 42 of 68 albums composed by Zappa.

“You realise that Zappa was being satirical?”

Of course. He never wanted to write “rock” music, and was interested in composing symphonies and concert hall music. But that music didn’t pay the bills. So he formed The Mothers Of Invention and began his deconstruction of the rock world. He didn’t like the fans, the record labels, the touring, and he didn’t like the contracts(one time he purposely created an 8 sided album making it a pain in the ass for Warner Brothers to mass produce and release). And he absolutely hated rock journalists and critics(remember the hearing with Tipper Gore about censorship…guess who was the only musician there. That’s right). So the attitude problem was already set in place, and combined with his musical brilliance, he “rubbed it in” even harder. Nobody was nobody from 1964 to 1981 unless they knew Frank Zappa. He wrote some of the most technical pieces of music ever played(he would hold tryouts when hiring musicians to test their skill)Now, all he needed to do was take affect.

Leaving The Mothers Of Invention he said:

“I don’t want to play for people who clap for the wrong reasons.”

Did you ever hear of ‘plastic people?’

Which version. There are several.

Or the ‘idiot bastard son?’ - “The father’s a Nazi in congress today, the mother’s a hooker somewhere in L.A.”

Abandoned to perish in the back of a car…
Kenny will stash him away in a jar…

That’s old school, Wise.

Nanook

A Zappa aficionado! Shake my hand!

Now wasn’t he something! The guy was an accomplished musician par excellence!

What with him gone, and Hendrix, and others too…

Do you listen to the blues at all?

What about Captain Beefheart? Grateful Dead… Jefferson Airplane…

Yeah, those were the days. Were you into Led Zeppelin - Jesus there was some creative stuff going on back then.

Deep purple - L.S.D., hippies!

What’s happening in music now? I don’t listen to it anymore.

I was once a guitarist and singer - (good guitarist and singer) - in bands. Now its just for my own amusement.

Courage!

P.

Well, see, that’s the stuff that turned me off too. The image it created, these “hippies,” are ridiculous. The biggest reason why I like these kinds of music is because they were great revolutions in music style. Instruments became electric, music styles were fused together(everything is based of the the blues, Wise. (excluding some eastern music which has more octaves) Jazz is really just blues played in odd time signitures. 5/4, 7/4, etc., distinguishing Jazz from its brother rock and roll, following the basic pentatonic scales of blues.) And it happened fast, and it hit hard. Remember, our parents(I think you are much older than me) listened to the Do-Wop for ten years. Then, suddenly, Chuck Berry leaps out with this terrible screaching guitar. It was almost overnight that rock and roll took over.

It ain’t like it used to be. I don’t like this digital era. I like the fat fuzzy sound of a good analog recording. All of my own material was recorded on a 4 track in anything from a garage to an attic.

Rap must die.

Country must die.

Everything else is cool, excluding techno, industrial, retro, house, hip, hop, flop, and pop.

Kill them too.

Quite a change of pace here…

Don’t forget it may have been motivation to live. In the early days of mesopotamia it was better to think of a after life b/c the present life was crap!

Nanook

The whole damn thing was incredible!

I first heard Chuck Berry when I was about eleven or twelve. I can still listen to him today.

The last music I saw live was B.B.King at the Royal Albert Hall in London a few years back. Now B.B. was something. That guitar style, somethin’ else.

Anyway, I can’t be reminiscin’ like this!

Courage!

P.

Here is the proof…The Jewish person. I am giving you this, because you have asked and I am by no means, judging or compelling you to believe it a certain way, I am just providing you with facts.

The nation of Israel (and us) began with Abraham. God set up his covenant with him and his descendents promising, “I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you.“Genesis 12:2 God said” You will be the father of MANY nations. No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of MANY nations. I will make you very fruitful;I will make nations of you and kings will come from you. I will establish my covenant as an EVERLASTING covenant between me and you and your DESCENDANTS after you for the GENERATIONS to come, to be your God and the God of your DESCENDANTS after you.”

Okay, now, with that being established, what areas of the world have been in constant turmoil? MANY AREAS. But, why aren’t they on the front page of the paper and the subject to political and religous discussion? Why is the Nation of Israel (the Jew) A small sect of people, always been the center of turmoil? AND for that matter,why are they still here? Because there is a God. The Jew is proof.
If all that is written in the Bible was myths, then the Jew wouldn’t exists, correct? For if one would follow that theory, nothing the Bible says would be truth for it would be myth. And if it was myth, there would be no Jew. But there is Jew, so the Bible is fact. (for many other reasons)
If you trace the Jewish race back to thier roots, it will go straight to Abraham. If there is an Abraham, then there is a God. Without God setting them apart as a nation, a small band of people would have never made it to 2004. And the war between the Palestinians and the Jewish people is about the land mentioned in the Old Testament. It was the “Palestinians” but the Jews bought it from them. One example,
Abraham needed to bury his wife after she died. So He asked the Hittites (palestinian land) if he could buy a cave to bury her in. Genesis 23 Death of Sarah, tells you all about it. Abraham bought it from them for four hundred shekals of silver. So the site was deeded to Abraham.
God also says in Exodus 19:5 “Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” What do you think of when you think of Israel? A Holy Nation. There is the proof.
God, Jew, Holy Nation.

Ummm, you said fact Heather, so my ‘fact’ radar went on and my screen went blank when I looked at your post. Maybe my radar isn’t as up-to-date as yours, could you explain to me where the ‘facts’ are within your post?

I should have been clearer, I was sharing with you the information I have, that is fact to me. The Jewish person is a fact to me for my own truth. Among many other things, the Jewish person makes fact out of the Bible simply by existing. I apologize for misconception. I was only sharing my answer as you shared your question. One answer coming from one person, you are the only one who can fit all the pieces together to fit your personal knowledge.

Very well said Heather, thank you for the clarification and I am in total agreeance with you on your personal truth statement. I look forward to reading more of your posts.

What’'s your take?

Thank you!

My take on what, please?