I'm Spartacus!

It is maybe useful to say a few things to explain my approach. Shortly, I consider that Utilitarianism is a doctrine that in fact cannot be applied. (Actually there’s a lot more reasons why I can’t side with Utilitarianism, but it’s pointless to dwell on them; I could even add that I simply do not believe in Ethics).
So, I have no specific intent to say anything in defense of Utilitarianism, quite the opposite.
Nevertheless, as for your questions, I guess that it would be possible for the utilitarian to consider that act moral and remain consistent. And I just mean that, I do not imply that I am the herald of the orthodox utilitarian view.

It seems that this is what everybody understands of Utilitarianism, but, sorry, I don’t get it.
What does it mean that «that’s a utilitarian thing to do»? OK, I understand it fits pretty well the utilitarian’s scheme. But only the utilitarian’s? I guess that it’s not the case. Other ‘creeds’ may assess it as good, maybe on condition that the act is moved by some ‘causes’. But, well, it seems that is no hindrance for the Roman Catholic Church in ordert to get a procedure of beatification started.
(Actually, if you ask me, I’d rather say that that was a Catholic thing to do). Now Catholicism may not necessarily conflict with Utilitarianism, yet it’s not exactly the same thing.
Then I think that Utilitarianism is definitely concerned with what should move to action. It seems to me that excluding altogether motives is an exaggeration of the doctrine of Bentham, and notably overstressing his seemingly staunch belief in psychological egoism. As prominent a utilitarian Bentham may have been, he is not the sole utilitarian. Besides, I won’t pretend to know more than I do on this subject, but if you check the article “History of Utilitarianism” on the Stanford Encyclopedia, you shall see that even in Bentham’s doctrine this psychological egoism is at odds with other tenets of his.
Bentham advocates actions to be guided by a ‘principle of utility’, Sidgwick writes «we must still arrive finally, if it is to be practically useful, at some determination of precepts or directive rules of conduct», Stuart Mill seems to imply that this principle is the only true motive for a truly moral action, being the existence of a moral faculty doubtful and being other motives the consequence of conditioning (such as education or customs).
This principle is stated by Stuart Mill as:

This happiness is far to be oneself’s only. The expression ‘to promote happiness’ hints to that, and Stuart Mill undergoes a long discussion in order to assert that there is more pleasure in promoting a general happiness (and that selfish happiness is vulgar). It is not clear, to me, what this happiness is supposed to be in the end. Pleasure is a sensation or a state of mind, if it is all about pleasure meant in this way, then we may infer that making dope free would be the most moral action. Hence, unlike others, in order to defuse the allegation of ‘swine morality’, Stuart Mill posits that some pleasures are vulgar while others are noble (and they could conflict with each other), that some natures cannot be contented with vulgar and temporary pleasure, and he presents a view that I find not dissimilar from Aristotle, that the noblest pleasure and political virtues overlap.

If, as I maintain against Bentham, there is no effective way to compute the increase in general happiness caused by an action, it seems to me that what is left of Utilitarianism is this ‘principle of utility’ guiding conduct.
However, let’s assume that it all boils down to a calculation of how beneficial are the consequences. Salvo definitely did something that can be approved by the Utilitarian, regardless how he got inspired. That said it was some borderline case too. If Salvo had ever had any utilitarian concern, he put himself in a condition where the supposed greater good was opposed to his own. But that could be deemed irrelevant because the aim is this ‘general happiness’. But even so, it remains to be seen if that was really the case. In fact Partisans (the Italian guerilleros during WWII) always left Germans carry on their reprisals on civilian, also because they saw it as instrumental in order to foster rebellion and uprisings, as indeed it happened. That was in the end a good strategy, it helped to put a strain on German occupation that made the war shorter, which means that probably it saved more lives than those saved by Salvo D’Acquisto.
Of course this is speculation, one sees the direct effect of Salvo’s act and can maintain that there is no proof of the alternative. Moreover the supposed positive effects of the alternative would be very diluted, one could not establish a sure correlation between the execution of the villagers and a shorter war. Very true, but the utilitarian can hardly argue on the basis of a lack of proof and of indirectedness. This proof in fact he never has. He may only have the more or less reasonable presumption of having effectively contributed to the general well-being, and the more the scope is large, the more is ‘general’, the more is maximised, then the more it is close to a mere guesswork.
There’s this so called thought experiment of the student who, being utilitarian, should decide whether studying or going out with friends. As going out is more pleasurable and as friends would enjoy his/her company, while they would not if the s-he opts for studying, the moral action would be going out. Stuart Mill would oppose that the pleasure of studying is of a superior kind compared to partying with friends and that the there’s a greater contribution to general happinness by successfully achieving studies. Yet neither the successful achievement nor this future utility can be guaranteed, they are merely presumed, hoped.

Just to be clear, I am not maintaining that Salvo was wrong, I am objecting to the utilitarian thing to do, I have deliberately developed a paradox to show that there is (or that I guess there is) an inner weakness in Utilitarianism that, against its claim, makes (at least some) moral actions undecidable, mostly if one does not want to focus on motives. Anyway, all this has not much to do with the questions you raised.

This is subjective and beyond contention. Personally I never saw it as a moral thing. Inspiring but not moral, not in the sense of something done for others.
However, I believe there may be an ‘utilitarian way’ to consider it moral.

The utilitarian could see that action as still guided by the ‘principle of utility’ (because of the presumed possible future effects), so he could still judge it as a moral. However, if we are really to assume that they could not count in any possible future consequence (which, honestly, I think it’s absurd), consider at least what Stuart Mill wrote (Utilitarianism, ch. 2):

Utilitarianism is simply:

This creates that state which is pleasant. Good

This creates that state which is unpleasant: Bad

Now the breadth of this subject may require so much processing for some people, that they simply give up and say, “There are no ethics at all”, but that doesn’t mean there are no ethics, simply that it mentally exhausts them.

Let me put it to you this way…

correct and incorrect are a measure of good and bad… “that was a good answer” “That was a bad answer”

By stating there are no ethics is to state that there are no correct answers which refutes your claim that there are no ethics.

Here is where the shuffle starts.  The greatest good devolves into the greatest pleasure, re Ec. This devolution is caused by the il interpretation of what constitutes 'the good'.  'Benifit' would stand to support the function of utility, therefore the use of words pre-determines the political-ethical stance.

Not necessarily. Or rather one could argue that deontological values are actually utilitarian but are good because humans cannot consciously calculate consequences in situations like this. IOW this will, in the end lead to the good - either through Newtonian world cause and effect chains (such as that this kind of act will definitely be muttered about by the Romans present, and this will sow seeds for other revolutions, countering judgments of slaves, creating idealism around Spartacus who represents a kind of spirit that…and so on. I mean that, likely apocryphal defiance is still inspiring people) and then perhaps in other chains of causes and effects that are not currently tracked in the current mechanistic craze. Perhaps, I could be said to be saying, deontological virtues are values that the human organism intuits (or has learned at a more imprinted level) which do in fact lead to better consequences but cannot be calculated on paper so to speak. Using a baseball metaphor for the man in Maine: the batter is not encouraged to calculate the trajectory of a curve ball using math while standing there. Better to have other heuristics, more intuitive ones. So at the level of process, it may not be smart to follow utilitarian procedures, but, I am arguing, partially in a devil’s advocate kind of way, at the level of ontology deontology - at least the good kind - and utilitarianism merge. Sort of paralleling how a very good mind MUST use both rational, openly followed, linguistic based processes AND trust its intuition. (I seem to use both deontological values and utilitarian processes and it seems to me everyone does. I mean where does the utilitarian start and how does one come up with the judgments to evaluate consequences, so at least at a minimal, kinda a priori level there is deontology. I tend to believe in non-newtonian effects that do in fact play out at the level of human acts and their consequences.)

And just to jump at the side: it would be an odd God that created a universe where utilitarianism and deontology could not fit. Where (God’s favored) deontology led to bad consequences, period. Of course in systems with transcendent consequences cause and effect open up in a way that makes the evaluation very tricky)

To me the problem with pure utilitarianism is hubris and self-contradiction. I have implied the latter critique above. The hubris comes in because there is an implicit claim that the conscious mind can track the consequences and evaluate them on some kind of scale.

IOW I think that it actually comes down to epistemological factors and heuristics. Modern secular people are left with utilitarianism since there is no mind (God’s, their own unconscious, whatever…) they are willing to trust outside the verbal, mental, (supposedly) logical. Which leads to funny self-evaluations and, yes, a lot of hubris. No, they have no beliefs based in part or whole on intuition. Where is the Gödel of values when you need him?

My obvious changes. There is an insidious way this fits in with physicalism, because it allows the utilitarians to act as if the set of causes and effects they can track are the only ones that exist. Though frankly, even here, a little honesty would lead to the admission that so many consequences, even ones in Newtonian metaphysics, are way beyond our ability to track. I mean the three body problem is radically simpler than, say, the consequences of corporate drug testing or progressive taxation.

Pure deontologists end up, it seems to me likely living out some kind of hypocrisy - I have not met a deontologist who did not in situ argue for acts along utilitarian lines - even if this is not necessarily logically necessary. (or is it?) I would tend to think also that at a meta-level most deontologists leave room for utilitarian exceptions: when one can morally lie and so on.

I think that utilitarianism is still better in a social way. If the value is judged abstractly then this is the best act, but if judged socially, such as to consider that these men were the fathers, husbands and children of a larger society that they have left behind and negatively affected.
I think that a lot of bad stuff can take place where a simpler utilitarian logic is subjugated to a more idealistic ethic in which people can give their life, but by the same token, take a life in the name of “the good”.
So I guess that for me the ultimate good or goal is life. Spartacus was ready to give his life and spare his companions his suffering. This is a case in which we are led to believe that all made the decision to basically committ suicide rather than give up their leader. Chances are this is not true in life. Is it historical? Debatable. But what if there is one who disagreed? Should he be killed to protect Spartacus? What if the Romans in the movie were a bit more aggressive and threatened to kill the women and children of these men? Better to have them slaughtered? But I don’t claim to have THE answer to these questions. What if Spartacus was a child? Then the answer charges. But I think that life should be the ultimate standard.

Yeah, I think you're going to have 90% agreement on what's good and bad across almost all ethical systems. Whether people like it or not, ethics is mostly about observing what we already sense to be true and coming up with an explanation for it, not [i]deciding[/i] what is right and wrong.  A moral system from which it must be concluded that violent rape is morally acceptable is a flawed system because it concludes what we already know to be false. Moral systems have very little ability to change what is right and wrong.  So the question here would be if the Spartacus example gives us a situation in which we all sense a moral thing has been done, and yet the utilitarian would have to condemn it. 

It would be hard to see it as something done for others. Who would these others be? Not the Romans, not the soldiers who died. Not, even for Spartacus. Of course this still points me to the conclusion that ‘something done for others’ is inadequate to describe morality just as utilitarianism is.

That seems reasonable. So then the question becomes who needs to do that judging in order for the situation to be moral. I think it’s likely the slaves gave no thought to making people happy in the future as they did what they did. So they were not operating according to this principle. If an outside observer evaluating the actions sees some future gain in happiness from it all, is that enough for it to be moral, or must it have been the self-sacrificing slaves themselves in this state of mind for the principle of utility to hold?

No. That is way too much of a stretch. There isn’t even 90% agreement within each ethical system, and there certainly isn’t 90% agreement between systems. However, if you would like to explain your foundation for this, I would gladly listen.

No, again. Ethics is, by its very definition, concerned with and related to our views of right and wrong. Observing what we sense to be true and coming up with an explanation for it is science and/or knowledge, not ethics…although ethics can entail that science and knowledge.

You and I many have concluded rape to be false, but “we” as a people certainly haven’t. Have you been reading about India lately; people in power there, and many in the culture, apparently feel rape is a man’s right and women usually are the ones who provoke it. As heinous as it is, It is clear many moral systems have different views on rape.

No, one more time. The moral systems of those in the civil rights movement did much to change what is right and wrong. The moral systems of the abolitionists did much to change what is right and wrong as well. If moral systems aren’t helping change right and wrong, then how do we know they are being changed morally?

I do, however, agree that the utilitarian would agree those volunteering for Spartacus was immoral. Unless they well knew their sacrifice would save even more lives, it cannot be utilitarian.

Nah, I don’t care what you think about anything.

So you’re saying what the men did in the Spartacus clip was immoral then?

Well, they didn’t protect him and it wasn’t a matter of giving him up. They were simply all crucified, Spartacus along with the rest.

Whether you care or not doesn’t change the fact you can’t counter my wicked debunking of your ridiculous statement… :wink:

It also doesn’t change the fact you failed to address the rest of my debunking of your other ridiculous arguments. I will post them below.

Here, you go moderator. I countered all your terribly flawed arguments. Maybe you can actually defend them this time…and then, maybe not… :wink:

No, again. Ethics is, by its very definition, concerned with and related to our views of right and wrong. Observing what we sense to be true and coming up with an explanation for it is science and/or knowledge, not ethics…although ethics can entail that science and knowledge.

You and I many have concluded rape to be false, but “we” as a people certainly haven’t. Have you been reading about India lately; people in power there, and many in the culture, apparently feel rape is a man’s right and women usually are the ones who provoke it. As heinous as it is, It is clear many moral systems have different views on rape.

No, one more time. The moral systems of those in the civil rights movement did much to change what is right and wrong. The moral systems of the abolitionists did much to change what is right and wrong as well. If moral systems aren’t helping change right and wrong, then how do we know they are being changed morally?